I know to the Imperium, the distinction is superfluous. But to Chaos, it might be a bit more Important. How might BC handle Renegades who don't actively seek the help of Chaos, like the Night Lords and the Soul Drinkers?

night lords not heritics? you do know that they have at least one deamon prince and likely some possesd members ? so how are they not heretics?

EoM doesn`t see the difrance becaus. it realy doesn`t make much of a difrance too 95% of the ppl you`ll meet.

are you a pritat, rebel, murder, demogog, hereteck whatever you are your a posibal ally or rival for other of your like and a enemy too the EoM

redhead222 said:

i was unaware of that, but they do not actively worship chaos, to my knowledge, so they are more renegades than heretics.

Gillam Harrow said:

Strictly speaking, they're traitors because they turned against the established orthodoxy of the Imperial Truth (the Horus Heresy wasn't strictly a Heresy as they didn't turn against a religion because the Imperium didn't have one; eight of the nine legions that turned are blasphemers as well, because they denounce the Imperial Creed as it currently exists without having been part of it, while the Word Bearers are Apostates, because they turned their backs on their faith). A heretic would be one who subverts the faith or introduces some unacceptable deviation into it, or any who follow someone who does those things.

The term heretic gets thrown around a lot in 40k, but it's only one of a collection of similar (but not identical) concepts.

Well, I think the heretic concept is quite straigthforward. You're with the Imperium of Men, the Ecclesiarchy and the High Lords of Terra or you're heretic.

Lord Ork said:

Except that such a definition would encompass aliens and daemons as well, which it has never done in practice.

Ok. You're with the Imperium of Men, the Ecclesiarchy and the High Lords of Terra, or you're heretic, or you're a filthy xenos.

(Only in one case you deserve to live, hopefully).

Wouldnt you be a recidivist first, a renegade secon, to turn into a heretic?

Looking at this from the RT angle. Not everyone in Footfall is a heretic, but most are certainly recidivists and potentiall renegades.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Sort of understandable, as true fanaticism encourages black and white thinking. "You're all going to hell, we're not" is pretty much all the average person needs. Studying the fine shades of variation between types of "heretic" is not the sort of thing encouraged outside the Inqusition.

As an aside, most religions reserve their greatest hatred for apostates, those who turn their back on the "true" faith for another faith or for some theologically insignificant variation on the original. If the wider populance knew about the full history of the Word Bearers, they'd likely become the bete noire of the entire Imperium...but the Inquisition keeps a lid on the full details of the Horus Heresy.

In 40k, there's actually a fair bit of tolerence for diversity within the broad tenets of the Ministorum, but equally any sect which deviates too much is likely to get slapped with a war of faith.

"A Heretic may see the truth and seek redemption. He may be forgiven his past and will be absolved in death. A Traitor can never be forgiven. A Traitor will never find peace in this world or the next. There is nothing as wretched or as hated in all the world as a Traitor." - Cardinal Khrysdam

As far as I know Black Crusade is about those who serve Chaos and those who try to use Chaos (and because of that still serve it). While Gue'vesa may be considered heretics and traitors by the Imperium you probably won't find rules for them in Black Crusade.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I applaud your attempt at interjecting some literacy.

I applaud your attempt at interjecting some literacy.

As do I. I've always been bothered a bit about how heretic is used as an almost all inclusive phrase.

1.
a. An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
b. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
2.
a. A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, as in politics, philosophy, or science.
b. Adherence to such controversial or unorthodox opinion.

During the time of the Great Crusade the Imperial Truth was just that, anything that went against it could be described as a heresy agaisn tthe Imperial Truth so Heresy is perfectly acceptable term by the second definition.
At the current time frame anyone who doesn't accept the Emporer is a Heretic, Xenos don't count as they aren't people and need to be wiped out as part of the faith, including them as heretics gives them status as people.

As to the difference between Renegades and Heretics in BC I don't think it will be discussed, as was stated this about playing Chaos so Renegades would be outside the scope, Night Lords are wierd, some do worship the dark gods but others just go around terrorising the galaxy in the name of Batman...I mean Night Haunter. Sould Drinkers have turned, or accepted the aid of the Chaos Powers by mistake or something like that I think but are Excamunicate Tratoris so they would be considered heretics. I think the only Space Marine Chapter that is declared Renegade but not heretics is the Knights of Blood (they are a Blood Angel succesor anyway). It gets confusing though.

Chaos Undivided has always included those who use Chaos for their own ends. Interesting, to me, that Chaos Undivided encompasses both the most fanatical and least fanatical chaotics.

But yeah, the heretic thing has always struck me as silly. Particularly the Rosarius malfunctioning more often when used by a "heretic" (electronics that malfunction when used by a wholly subjective label, nice), and the Hammer of Heretics talent (I get a +10 to hit against anyone who I dislike).

Particularly the Rosarius malfunctioning more often when used by a "heretic" (electronics that malfunction when used by a wholly subjective label, nice)

You mean because that makes less sense than, say, a gadget becoming faster due its colorization?

its 40k ppl it doesn`t have too make sense

While everything don't have to make logical sense to the 20th century person, there should be some internal logic in the setting. Every time the GM has to explain things which: "that's simply how its writen" - is a sad day.

Deinos said:

Out of the traitor legions, I'm most fond of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion. Both use cunning tactics and neither have great reverence for the chaos powers.

As for the rosarius, it can be a bit silly if it is just "electronics". But considering how 40k tech works, who's to say each one isn't built with "holy" rituals that bind the tech to the Emperor? Taking holy to mean "Emperor-powered psyker power".

Decessor said:

The problem is if we start with that kind of explanation it would be logical that an untouchable can ignore the Rosarius of an enemy.

A fair point. Perhaps the rosarius' ability to distinguish between believers in the Emperor and His foes would be compromised. Or it works on different principles altogether.

redhead222 said:

Out of curiosity, can you site your source for the Night Lords having at least one daemon prince and/or possessed members?

While certainly not 100% authoritative, I checked out the Night Lords entry in the Lexicanum and it notes the Night Lords, as a whole, as being exceptionally proud of not being corrupted by Chaos and looking down on those who are corrupted.

Some other interesting facts:

• Unlike a number of other rebellious Primarchs, Curze never became a daemon prince.
• The Night Lords' geneseed is among the most pure geneseed in existence.
• After the Horus Heresy, the Night Lords did not retreat to the Eye of Terror.

I don't know enough about FFGs 40k RPG* games to make a truly educated guess, however, if Black Crusade doesn't provide rules for characters not looking to ascend/descend to daemonhood/chaos spawn, I would suspect you'd have a couple of options:

• Special rule them to neither gain corruption nor infamy; or to limit their effects; or to otherwise specially handle the two traits
• Handle them like normal Marines from Deathwatch
• Some combination of the two methods above

*Black Crusade is the first game in the line/genre/field to truly catch my interest as I used to play SM/CSM/Daemon in TT 40K.

night lord the novel. former axemaster whatever the hell his name was fights the main char. and axemaster is a deamon prince, main char pretty horifid by it (being an other night lord former lord himself)

do not have prove of possesed but if there a deamon prince nightlord lord there must be some. probly less them some others

ps nightlords and alpha and maybe even iron warriors are my fav chaos ones. the 4 big ones are too unrepentat slaves or fools those tree see chaos as a means too and end too the war (mostly)

Becoming a daemon prince does not necessarily mean submitting to one of the four chaos gods. There are both lesser beings (somewhere between greater daemon and godhood) such as those noted in Dark Heresy. There is also the path of learning about chaos and using the knowledge to ascend without a patron. Tough but it leaves one independent of the gods.

redhead22 said:

Thank you for the reference: I was unaware of it. However, given the reaction of the other Night Lord in your example, I do believe what you've pointed out is an aberration; much like finding a corrupted librarian in a loyalist chapter. I'd still label the Night Lords, as a whole, as 'Renegades' and would expect their members to avoid the corrupting force of Chaos as much as possible.

For my own enjoyment, and hopefully the entertainment of my fellow forumites i've decided to make a small list of terms and how I personally would apply them.

Heretic - humans holds a different view of the Imperial Faith than those that are accepted by the Ministorium

Heretek - no need to expand on this one I would think

Traitor - someone who was once part of the Imperium but has actively turned against it

Renegade - someone who was once part of the Imperium but has abandoned its authorities

Xenophile - humans under Xenos influence or who traffics with Xenos or their artefacts

Apostate - someone who has left the Imperial Faith and denies the God Emperor

Blasphemer - humans who are specifically targeting the Imperial Faith

Rouge - someone who conducts and activity on which the Imperium has a monopoly, outside of Imperial authority