Simple:
no Auger Array/MIU for non Techmarines. it just doesn't feel right. Helps alot.
Expect where Iron Hands are involved. well: The Body you are given is the gift of the Emporer. calling it useless and weak.... (wich a Player does if he just "trades" Req for Bionic without emminent need) is Blasphemy and just don't fit with an Adeptus Astartes. Especially the Apothecary that performs the surgery.
Only because their is a rule that state costs, it doesn't mean it's that simple.

Example: Go to the Hospital and tell them: "HEy i heard Replacments for missing Legs makes me faster. I'm a sprinter. can you chop of my legs? I have the Money." Well, we all know where you go right?

Bionics are for such things as: the ravener chewed of my leg. not: I need go faster. chop them off.
Thinking this way is pure and simple metagame thinking. It has nothing to do with the character involved.

btw even Iron Hands, don't replace everthing immediatly, the replace an arm that failed him. a hand that couldn't steady his aim...
Well somehow i fear this will get us nohwhere...

Akil said:

Which is why that when we see official stats for them, I have no doubt that FFG will see the light and include Custom Wargear (bionics) as one of their character advances. Heck: Maybe two or three of them!

*crosses fingers*

C'mon guys: Don't let me down here!

I'm with you, my previous message is all about it

Heck, if I had a player who wanted to play the crazy pimpin' Techmarine, i'd even throw in one or two of those Sig Wargear (bionics) in his advance table, just for fun.

'Flesh is weak' talent represents the constant upgrades a techmarine undergoes, Requisition costs appliy only to advanced/impoved bionics.

There are a number of negatives with bionics in the 40K universe.

1:- Bionics are permenant replacements. This is not a universe where if you do not like the colour of your artificial arm, you go off to the nearest radio shack & get another one. You are given an amazing gift of human science, one that marks you as special for just recieving it.

2:- Modification of the bionic would be VERY rare for those ignorant of the glory of the Omnissiah (which is most people). reserved only for damaged units or Individuals of high rank. A disciple of the Omnissiah would be highly reluctant to alter the perfection of the machine-god's blessing.

3:- Bionics do not heal. with out the right parts & techpriest to repair the implant & perform the correct maintanence blessings, the bionic will accumlate damage.

4:- Bionics are not just 'plugged-in'. They require the co-operation of an Apothecary or Techpriest biologis & a certain amount of time for the surgery

This co-operation & time is where requisition cost comes in. It is not used to get a new bionic as you would a weapon, instead it is burned to buy the time & good-will of those involved in the implantation. Requisition costs for anyone else should be doubled at least, requiring the kill team as a whole to get their battle-brother in fighting shape once more.

5:- There are a limited number of bioinics. Only those sufficiantly knowledgable of the Omnissiah would even attempt to build one, the Forge-master would have an active hand in this, either supervising or building. Once more, requisition burned to obtain his good will.

6:- Those marines who indulge in constant bionic upgrades are seen by others as not quite right. Look at the fluff, Techpriest/marines & chapters close to them are not fully trusted due to their divided loyalties & knowledge of arcane machinery, they stand stand apart.

Any non-techpriest/marune or chapter, such as Iron Hands, with a lot of bionics, will be seen by others, not just marines, as dangerously incompetant if not cursed or mentally unstable, the later probably causing him to be shuned by other marines unless ordered not to, & also drawing attention from Ecclisiarchs & inquisitors.

The biggest part with bionics that should be remembered, is that most space marines consider themselves to be the grandsons of the Emperor himself, created from his flesh & that of his Primarch sons. Why would that flesh not be good enough?

The Iron Hands are the notable exception, seeing as Ferrus Manus had his lower arms made of a silver metal from his fight with Asirnoth.

In summary; Requisition is not only used for the bioinic itself, but also to pay for the implant procedure, 'just-because' reasons for getting it should cost a lot more. Social rolls, modified by renown & if the rest of the kill team petitions as well (i.e: pools requisition), should be made for all but the most rudimentary bionics.

Sincerely;

Dracurian

P.S: Where the hell is the spell checker?!

8-)

I think this would all be tidied up by some sort of ability to determine maximum cybernetics installable, maybe based on Toughness Bonus, or Willpower Bonus, something like that. Chapters like Iron Hands would get a bonus to that, as would anyone playing a Techmarine. Chapters that abhor cybernetics may bet a negative to that number, in exchange for something else. Who knows. Adds flavor without being game-shattering.

It's kind of a "change the existing text of the RAW" vs "bolt on this addendum to the RAW" sort of thing. I think most games I've dealt with in the past had an upper limit on cybernetics allowed; it just seems like this system forgot to add it.

Still have a problem with players over-using cybernetics? Haywire fields, techxorcism guns, all kinds of fun stuff there. As it is, I'm gonna have a whole group of players with left arms replaced by cybernetics before too long. Why? Our hit location rolls HATE left arms. Wierd stuff.

I think the greatest limit on bionics in Deathwatch & 40K in general is the universe it's self.

Only very senior people get good ones (unless it was due to some heroic action). The rest can be born out via actual roleplay, the more bionics you have, the more people will treat you different.

If you want games stats, then start applying a penalty to fellowship if you think it is getting out of hand, similar to what the Flesh Tears receive. Applies the majority of the time with caveates for when it does not.

But remember, exotic weaponry is not nessarcery to cause problems, something as simple as a swamp or dust storm can be just as debilitating over time.

Always remember, bionics do not heal.

Even minor damage during a mission can lead to problems until repaired, & major damage will probably give the bionic an interesting quick for ever more.

Sincerely;

Dracurian

8-)

Dracurian said:

All very well, but:

1) That's not actually a disadvantage, especially not to high-end PCs.

2) Nor is that!

3) True, but I don't believe that is really part of the game rules, except as applies to critical damage. Take 5 wounds to the arm, and as long as you aren't in criticals, it can be patched up by the apothecary still. And critical damage can't be fixed on mission, either, so it's no disadvantage that metal can't be.

4) Time-out for installation is not a disadvantage either, unless the GM is willing to say 'Bob, don't turn up for three weeks, because you're in hospital'. The whole party have to sit around kicking their heels doing nothing while waiting for their Tech.

5) Another fluffy reason, without real down-side. Sure; you could increase costs, but this is then a rule change, just like the ones suggested that are saying 'for the love of god, don't give them bionics just for some Requisition, charge them XP for it, like every other statistic and equipment upgrade'.

6) Completely true, and the reason why I'd not install cyberwear on a marine I was playing unless it was relevant. But it's not going to in any way deter a munchkin who is just seeing '+2 toughness' anyway.

You could charge me 60Req in an early mission for a cybernetic, and -if I had my munchkin hat on- I'd still gladly pay it, and let the rest of the team take up a bit of temporary slack for me.

Essentially, any amount of fluff is not going to stop the munchkin who has homed in on this blatantly broken part of the rules. You have to beat numbers with other numbers!

while bonuses cap at +60% having extra means you offset penalties by having 10% more than the most difficult penalty (at 130%). havent you played rifts before? moving on i do not allow anyone to opt for bionics at my table save for techmarines and even for them i make them pay thru the nose for any past their normal, needing lascannons at rank 4 or less to threaten my kill team is just wrong.

Would it not make more sense to have them get bionics/cybernetics for free If they lost them in the field, and then only charge them exp or whatever if they decide to replace a limb with bionics/cybernetics on purpose?

"Usually Battle-Brothers are augmented with cybernetics due to battle wounds. Requisition and Renown requirements are listed for reference ..." [sic, emphasis mine]

Very directly implies the requisition and renown requirements are not listed to allow standard requisition of cybernetics in the Oath Taking and Armament phase. The exceptions easily fall under the Tech-Marine and Iron Hands purvue.

"usually insatlled to replace lost functionality from Critical Damage." [sic]

Specifically implies replacement occurs only when someone lost an organ or appendage in a previous situation. The exceptions easily fall under the Tech-Marine and Iron Hands purvue.

"There are exceptions, such as the Iron Hands and many Techmarines..." [sic] See? Exceptions.

Implies these guys can voluntarily replace limbs and organs. In fact these are the ONLY characters with rules specifically allowing for voluntary replacement.

There is not a single reference that directly or indirectly implies a non-tech/Iron Hand player can voluntaraly opt for bionic replacements. So in a debate standpoint that's 3 against, 0 for.

Its quite obvious players are not to be allowed to simply chop off arms and get bionics willy nilly. The cost in requisition to replace an arm is a penalty you must take for you next mission for being reckless and loosing your arm in the first place, not a method to collect upgrades whenever you want.