okay how do bionics work? obivously a tech marine or an iron hand will want them

do they requisiton as normal? (but you can hardly remove them after the mission)

Do they use sign wargear to get bionics?

do they have to wait till a bit is blown off for a replacement?

Very good question, one which has been debated here and there, with no real consensus.

First, note that Techmarines do get some cybernetics (3 to be precise) during their career, "for free".

Then, you have the idea of buying them. As they have a Req cost, I've always considered them to be Signature Wargear-able, and I don't think this would break the game.

I've also spoken qith a GM who said that when his players burnt a Fate Point not to die, he would eventually award them a bionic where they took the hit, of common quality. If they paid the XP he deemed reasonable for the benefit, they could get it of exceptionnal craftsmanship.

But all that is about interpretation

First, understand my character, *cough* Iron Hands Techmarine *cough*

I just requisitioned them like normal gear. A problem is basicly getting something for nothing as requisition is used or gone and you keep the bionic permanently, (except for servo arms and harnesses). I'm almost fully bionic, and by choice no less. One problem with the requistioning of bionics is the surgery and recovery time (2D10-TB days, minimum 1). Sometimes missions run into time problems, so you can't leave immediately. One way we "fixed" that was to have me spend future requisition on the bionics, rest up, and then i had less requistion on the next mission. Some players like me got them by choice, but others on my team actually refuse to use them unless neccesitated by the removal of limbs in the heat of battle. Another oddity was that the cost for bionics don't go up for exceptional and master, but relies on the characters renown rating.

In the end, its a GM's choice, allowing bionics only when bought with a specialty/talent/deed/etc and with loss of limbs, or allow them to requisitioned just like any other gear.

Ouh yeah forgot about that deed from Rites of Battle. That makes moar implants for you ^_^'

i think for sake of balance i'll require players to use sig wargear for them if by choice otherwise my techmarines will be fully mechanical by the time they hit rank 2 !

As per RAW, you just pay Requisition and then get a permanent bionic upgrade.... which is clearly derranged and complete horse***t!

The fact that it takes time to heal is no disadvantage at all unless your GM is actually willing to say 'Bob, your marine is in surgery still, so don't turn up for the next 4 weeks while I run the game'.

How you decide to fix the sorry state of affairs that would have every munchkin player fully 'borged up by mission number 6 is down to the GM, but there are a few options:

1) Buy bionics as your wargear. So players have a choice: Fancy power sword, or bionic arm (This is what I do).

2) Come to an arrangement with your GM where you get given bionics, preferably for XP, as this then doesn't break the 'XP for Requisition' economy. I'd recommend 20Req = 500 or more XP, as this then falls into line with wargear. I'd probably charge 20Req for 1000xp myself, because I'm mean, and because these purchases would be on top of normal wargear, essentially giving extra stuff.

3) Con your GM into giving you stuff for a one-off charge in Requisition, while waving the rules under his nose and saying 'but it says here...', thus essentially getting free XP and irritating everyone else by breaking the system via a dumb rule.

4) Have the cost in Requisition as a *permanent* reduction in your per-mission Requisition.

5) Have bionic replacements given to you by the GM when he blows limbs off via critical hits, or when you burn a fate point to avoid messy death. At this point it's worth noting that with the exception of a couple of Chapters (Iron Hands et al), Marines don't sign up for elective amputation, and players should not really be saying 'GM, between missions, I'd like to have my arm cut off and I'll replace the sacred flesh that the Emperor deemed suitable for me with some metal'

6) Something else.

I would think, personally, you shouldn't be allowed to buy bionics with signature wargear. Bionics, for most marines and chapters, are what you turn to when your eyes have been melted by Tau pulse rifles, or your leg blown off with a seeker missile.

While Tech Marines, quite rightly, have talents and such to buy these bionics as "upgrades", letting normal marines do the same kind of cheapens the techmarine. I can obviously see, though, an Iron Hand getting access to "voluntary" bionics. As this is part of their chapter's culture. I would figure the Iron hands would have talents to buy bionics specifically in their chapter advances.

As it stands, and I have first hand experience with this, bionics should be given out to a joe schmoe marine only when its needed. "Oh crap my leg is GONE (not maimed-yet repairable, gone)." This is when you pay the requisition cost before your next mission. Even if you're still in the middle of a mission you don't have the resources to bionic someone. So you've lost a leg, roleplay it out well and have some fun with it. Then your next mission you got to pay the one time requisition (from your pool) and get your exceptional (or is it master in latest errata?) bionic part from then on.

But again, I just don't think its right for most marines/chapters to allow "voluntary" bionic replacement. Techmarines and Iron Hands the exception, but others... It just doesn't feel right, and lessens the uniqueness of the techmarine career path.

it was really a question for techmarines. my normal players with other specialism arent interested in bionics but i have 2 techmarines one in a party who is building a tank character the other as a solo almost sherlock holmes like player sort of indian Jones of archo tech with more firepwoer

As for cost: good/master crafted Items cost 1,5 / 2 x base cost of an item this goes for Bionic as well. meaning Exceptional bionics are double cost, good: one and half of the item in question. -edit- also: see the complete entry under cybernetics in the core rule book, quiet plain i say.
Should solve this.

as for the rest: under "normal" conditions, you get new shiny bitz when old fleshy ones torn apart by choppa.
Meaning no sane Astartes, Iron Hands are not realy sane, sorry guys =D , would just go the Aphotecari stating: old arm weak, need better one! Reply would be : Train harder Brother! and see the Chaplain at your way out.

After getting rescued from the field missing both arms and an eye, diffrent story. (and -1FP and some Insanity most likley)

This is not cyberpunk, it's still a game about the Emporer's Finest. And if he wante'd them made of steel he had invented an Army of Robots, and not genenginerd superhumans.

PAG 176, under "CYBERNETICS"

Requisition and Renown requirements are listed for reference, but with the exception of servo-harness and servo-arms (witch can connect to and detach from external ports), cybernetics are permanent...... it's quite clear, isn't it?

Yes it is. And if you consider it for more than 5 seconds, it's a poor wording that panders to munchkins.

The 'economy' is in place to give players gear via either XP expenditure, or temporarily through Requisition.

Consider:

Mission 1. Player elects to spend most of his Req on gear and chop his arm off and replace it with a cybernetic one because it's only 20 Req or whatever.

Mission 2. Ditto, other arm.

Mission 3. Ditto, leg

Mission 4. Ditto, other leg

et cetera.

Ten missions into the game, we have a monstrous cyborg that has effectively cost the player nothing.

I disagree. When I read through it, I saw that as just one of the perks of playing a Techmarine. I've got a tech in my game who's pretty well cybered out by now, which results in an extra 2 armor everywhere and some 10% bonuses. He got these in exchange for less gear in particular missions, so he had to bust his rear to pull his own weight.

Compare this to a devastator with bonuses to his WS placing it around 130%, and a heavy bolter that can kill most Elite villains in 4 hits (averaging between 6 and 10 per shot). I see this as the same logic that Assault Marines should have to pay for Pilot (personal), because that's such a cool ability that it'd be insane to start them with it. So they need to spend an extra 500xp at character creation. You know, for balance.

What? But it's the absolute prerequisite to them!

You don't make the Techmarine pay for Mechanicum Implants, do you?

Plus if your Tech really wanted his implants, he could have bought the Deed which gives a hell of a lot of them.

P.S.: Pilot(Personal) costs 100 xp for any Rank 1 Space Marine (errataed...), so why 500?

Autarkis02 said:

Except that it's not constrained to Tech-Marines. ANY PC can go and do it.

And... busting his butt for three missions in exchange for +2 armour and +1TB? Man, I'd cry him a river! That's like taking a -1 to hit for levels 1-3 in a D&D game in return for +2AC and +1CON for the next 17 levels. A temporary draw-back for a game-economy-breaking permanent bonus is just a no-brainer, really. I'm surprised that the rest of the players haven't all done it as well.

Bonuses to WS [sic] totalling 130%? You realise that bonuses all cap at +60%, yes? So he's put four advances into BS already and started with a stat of 50? And anyone can pick up a heavy bolter, whereas only a tech can use a conversion beamer...

I don't believe either of you see the point I'm trying to make. To my understanding, the ability to requisition bionics is as core to the Techmarine class as the ability of assault marines to use jump packs. Much of the discussion here is that you should force them to pay for these benefits, so why not force the devastator to requisition his heavy bolter? To pay for signature wargear so he can always have an ammo backpack? Why not force your "Broken" assault marines to pay for that nifty jetpack? Force weapons are extremely powerful weapons and are much lauded over in the TT. So why let your librarian start with it? It's clearly unbalancing. Sure the game says they get them, for free, but "that is cleary deranged and complete horse***t." I'm not saying that balance shouldn't be a concern for a GM, but a critical lense should be used on all aspects of the game, not simply the schtick of one of the classes.

Deathwatch seems to be focused on a rather high power level. One way the techmarines compete with the other classes (instead of being the Adept in a squad of warriors) is that they get easy access to bionics. And if you feel the non-techmarines are going to get too into bionics, limit it to techmarines or anybody else with a good excuse (like the Iron Hands). But don't punish the class that's already one of the weaker classes as far as actual combat goes (Servo arm aside, they don't have access to any other melee number of attack bonuses, so they can't dodge if they swing twice, and Assaults get access to them very quickly. Techs have to take elite advances).

I'm not saying Techmarines are weak, but they're not nearly as straightforward as many of the other classes, and they're also the class who is going to be responsible for spending experience and requisition to make a mission achievable where many of the other players can focus on pure combat. Look at the class as a whole, not an individual feature.

So, using your DND explanation, I see it more like the character losing access to some small amount of gold early on for a bonus to his AC and CON, but in order for his class to use his off hand attack he has to give up his Dex bonuses to his AC. Which is why he gets the CON and AC bonus. And he has a moderate BAB so he needs that extra big attack. Again, I see this as a balance for the whole class, not just one element. And I've restricted requisition to bionics solely to Techmarines, where anybody that loses a limb or gets permanently blinded gets them for free.

The Dev gets a HB as starting equipment, the AM a jump pack. The Tech Marine gets a bunch of cybernetics (of a far higher requisition value, if you break it down) as starting equipment. And can get more with a merit-thingy from RoB if they're willing to purchase them.

If the Dev and the AM want more stuff they DO have to pay for it via signature wargear. Mastercrafted HB? That'll be some XP, and you only get a very limited number of selections. The techmarine could also put their signature wargear XP towards more cybernetics too. The AM and the Dev don't get free stat-ups and masterwork heavy bolters at any later point in the game, whereas it's ok for a tech marine to get free stat-ups and even talents (ie Sprint)?

I don't feel that getting free bionics in the ongoing game is something that the techs are entitled to, given that they already have some to start with, and as much to buy on their class advancement list as the others. I also don't feel that it's a weak class. It's already far more survivable than all bar -very arguably- the AM.

As to the Tech Marine 'having' to take things that makes the mission achievable, I don't really buy that. If the other PCs spunk all their Req on moar dakka, then it's not the Tech's job to take the essentials. That's a player problem, and as the tech in that situation, I'd just spend my Req on a bunch of selfish stuff too and say 'either chip in a share for melta bombs, or fail the mission. Your choice'. Cutting back to D&D: If the players make the Cleric buy all his own wands of healing and diamonds for ressurections, is that a problem with the Cleric class or the players? In fact; under the suggested 'Techs get stuff for free' model, I see the reverse as working. "Tech-brother Bob, we need another meltabomb and a auspex." "Screw you, I'm going into surgery for another stat-up with the requisition. I don't care if we need the stuff, because it might cost us some XP and requisition, but I'll be gaining stuff for good. That's more important!" It becomes in the Tech's best interest to pile as much Requisition into cybernetics as possible, as soon as possible, even at the expense of group XP and renown... in fact, the higher the ratio of His Stuff: Everyone Else's XP that he gets, the further ahead of the others he'll be in free XP.

I very much am looking at the class as a whole: They become ridiculously hard to kill. Why would I make that worse, for no XP cost? As I said before: They are already the most likely PC to survive (perhaps less survivable than the AM, but probably not engaged in melee as much!).

All I can say is that has not been my experience playing with several very clever players. And the things the techpriest needs outside of combat aren't strictly gear related, several of them are skillwise. I'll acknowledge there's been some player-driven issues in my group, primarily the "pure combat" thinkers with the wholly-combat oriented classes elect to spend very little outside of better weapons and combat-focused talents.

And yes, they are hard to kill. It makes up for a dearth of combat related Talents. But I'm still not convinced that it's imbalanced. I don't see it as making the cleric buy his own wands, I see it as the DM saying "Since the cleric is just too powerful, also I don't like them getting anything free cause that's unbalanced, I don't think you'll get your 3rd level spells. You're already doing just fine with 2nd level spells, you should be OK for the rest of the campaign. This is totally balanced, cause a fighter has to spend feats for his combat abilities, why should a cleric get them for free?"

As I see it, the logical progression you describe feels more like that. Techs are supposed to be really hard to kill. It makes up for the fact that at higher tiers, their contribution to damage will be noticably lower than the other characters. And most of the other tanky-goodness the tech has to offer comes from skills and talents he already has to purchase. The balance here is a little more focus on defense and less on offense, but he gets a few free items. But he has to also have a particular reputation to get high level gear, and until he reaches it, common-craft cybernetics add 2 armor to one spot on the body. Useful, but hardly game breaking. It'll take a campaign to fully tech-out.

And because I'm sure it's coming, the techs get some really cool weapon feats. So yes, he can blow a hole clean through anything for a round with a meltagun, but you're still probably only looking at a 60 to 70 BS, maybe a little higher if you completely focus on weaponry, which means barring any other situational bonuses he's still going to miss that super shot one third of the time. I know he could get it up considerably higher with some effort, but if that's the case he's sacrificed a considerably amount of the defensive abilities that the bionics would provide.

I'm still with Autarkis on this one.

Techmarines like Techpriests gain more and more Bionics. It's normal.
The Requisition thingy is for one situation only: Boss the 'nid Alpha Warrior eat my arm. need new one to kill more Xenos.

EXPECT for Iron Hands, no sane Marine would wan't more Bionics when absolutly necessary to carry on the fight, expect Techmarines for wohm this is natural evolution becoming the Omnissiah closer.

It's an RPG for gods sake, sorry for swearing,

I personally tend to penalize or Kick Players under me GMing who completly ignore the Idea behind essential as the fundamental core of belive of a Monastic Order of Knights. And Marines ar exactly this at core. Yes sounds harsh at first but usually first i talk with them. Then feed them to the fish

So i see no Problems with aqquiring Bionics through Req.

(BTW: ok, either you two get a shiny new arm, instead of the good flesy ones you have, or... we get us for this Mission a **** Razorback!)

If they abuse it, 30 req per Marine per Mission is also fine and enough. Enjoy as they suffer trying to down that runt down chimera with bolter and chainsword, after using up their grenades. and only because MR Iron Hands needed new things so no Missile Launcher and Krag Missiles...

Again though: By your ruling, ANY PC could load up with cybernetics. For free. Every mission. If we're playing the RAW card, there is nothing that says only Tech-marines can buy cybernetics.

Given this rule, any munchkin player would be a bit stupid not to. And if the GM says 'that's not how it's supposed to work, you can't do it as a space wolf', then any munchkin with an any brain matter will play an Iron Hand assault marine or whatever and then simply be better than everyone else. For free.

If players want more stats, then they should have to pay for them, like everyone else.

It's indeed normal for tech marines to get more bionics. And they can choose to do so by buying them as Wargear, with XP. If the GM thinks a player should get more bionics, then I'd consider allowing them to buy additional Wargear as an Elite Advance, for XP.

And sadly, penalising the entire team because one player wants moar stuffz never works well. It just breeds disharmony, as the moar dakka player seldom cares that his character is 'better' at the cost of everyone else around the table.

Autarkis02 said:

That's erm... nothing to do with it. The tech-marine is still getting his '3rd rank spells[skills]' as it were. He is not being deprived of anything that the rules explicitly give the class. He's just not getting a bunch of free stuff by manipulating a silly rule, to my mind.

Free cybernetics is not balanced with them doing less damage at high ranks. Them doing less damage at high ranks (which isn't really the case if they carry a big-ass gun, and a bunch of mechandrites) is balanced by them having secondary skills, and being immensely tank already.

I don't think it will take a campaign to fully 'tech out', given that even 'only' replacing 1 limb/organ per mission will result in them being pretty much full-borg by rank 3, hence my comparison to low levels in a D&D game earlier.

Ultimately it's your choice as it's your campaign, but as a fellow player in the group, I wouldn't be particularly impressed, and I'd be wondering where my free stuff was, too. It compares to handing the Paladin a +5 Holy Avenger at 4th level because 'Paladins should have them' [Man, I need to quit with the D&D references]. Especially if I was having to chip in extra to buy stuff with Requisition because the tech was spending it all on making themselves better.

I would have much preferred the Tech-Priest to have access to a few Wargear (bionics) Talents at 500-1000xp throughout their career tree.

They do, when they cross Renown thresholds

And if they want more, then they'll spend their Signature Wargear on it, not on some shiny Powersword.

Want bionics? Pay them with what is needed!

If you allow a player to use Req to get implants, that means that whatever is requested once is available forever. So after 3 missions, the Devastator will have his good ol' HB, his Plasma Cannon, his Multi Melta and his Lascannon.

Sounds silly? Then letting bionics open for Req is as silly.

Stormast said:

Agree 100%.

The problem I have with that is the much-toted balance I keep referencing. I don't have my tables in front of me, but as I recall most of your bionics are around 20 to 30. I think the sig gear cutoff for level 1 is 20. So by your reckoning, if a techpriest wants a basic no-frills bionic implant (say an MIU), he gets 2 armor somewhere as a permanent bonus, and can fluffwise interface with machines. Or he could have a power sword. 2 armor and fluff versus a power sword. This is balanced? I can give some more detailed comparisons later when I get back to my books, but it doesn't sound remotely fair to the priest. And I'll find where it doesn't quite say, but very strongly implies that only techs get bionics for requisition. It's in a paragraph at the beginning of the bionics section.

And if you're going to add in "well, this is my dm fiat for balance" arguments, why do you have to be polar? You're arguing my "by the RAW" saying that everbody should have it, but you prefer nobody gets it. What about only techs and other fluffy chapters have access to it like it sounds like it ought to be?

1) It's 2 Toughness Bonus, much better than armor since it's never nullified by Pen. And it doesn't suck at all. Get shot 10 times in that location: it saved 20 wounds. I don't call that weak.

2) It's not only fluff, it's +10% to some rolls.

3) He can always req the much-wanted Power Sword on the missions where he needs it. Or a Chainsword, it's also balanced and not very far away in the damage competition.

As for balance, once again, you're not reading it right. I'm not saying the bonus is worth 20 req/a signature wargear. But I'm definitely saying that if you just have to pay the req once, it's crazy and off-balance. With your comparison I could say that I just have to req the Power Sword once, and for the rest of my DW career it'll be free.

The Techmarine already gets 3 implants during his career. If he wants more, he has to pay for it. Add up some Signature Wargear (bionics) in his advance tables as a house rule if you want to, but req'ing them cannot be fair, one way or the other (if anyone gets it then the Techmarine's advantage of getting bionics for free is moot, and if only him gets it then he's got a +2 T bonus for free compared to the others...). And if you want "special" chapters to get it, add the same Signature Wargear (bionics) in their chapter advance table instead of yet another killy talent. Will do for diversity.

Autarkis02 said:

Yeah. Bargain. +10 to all drive stats is well worth 500xp. Plus added fluff bonuses, too.

+2TB on a location is well worth 500xp, too.

Both for 500xp is a complete steal.

You can always just requisition a power sword when you need it, out of the 60+ odd requisition that you get.

What about techs and other fluffy chapters pay for their 'plusses' and wargear via XP like everyone else has to?