Its been in my mind for awhile and i find i have to bring it up. While i love the 40k game system, i will not be playing this system. Its for thhe same reason that i wont DM a evil campign. its not a moral thing its just do to the fact that i have never enjoyed running a evil game.

IDK

Thoughts?

Evil is a point of view. To the minions of chaos, the Imperium is evil for putting humanity in chains basically and not allowing them true freedom.

Evil in this sense may be a point of view for the characters, but not for the players, as it's pretty clear that Chaos = evil to a normal human being.

That said, I don't think there is much to say about this. It's simply a matter of taste; if you feel uncomfortable with the idea of evil characters/campaigns, then it is absolutely okay to avoid this game. I'm tempted to say "you're missing out", because such campaigns and characters can get extremely interesting, but in the end that too depends entirely on one's perception.

"The difference between Gods and Daemons largely depends upon where one is standing at the time". So sayeth blessed Lorgar

I have no problem playing evil characters.

Because it is simply just that: play.

Personally I'm not interested in the game either. I will follow it's development, but I'm not going to buy it. The reasons? Well....

1) While I'm not completely opposed to evil campaigns Chaos in Warhammer goes beyond what I'm willing to accept in player hands. Everything in 40k is bigger and more extreme than in other settings, and I don't need people competing who gets the most depraved ideas....

2) I don't see the use of the system. With a few houserules I can play heretics with the Dark Heresy rules and Chaos Space Marines with the Deathwatch rules.

3) Also the system seems to be incompatible with the others. If you start Black Crusade you can't make your character a Penitent, Exorcised, Black Shield or whatever to redeem him (since the new rank system and corruption mechanic will always treat him as the favoured child of the big 4) and if you start a Dark Heresy or Deathwatch game you probably won't be able to say that you think that your superiors are too bossy and that you want to serve Khorne.

I like how everyone goes "Chaos is evil" when the Imperium kills billions in pointless wars, burns and slaughters those who don't agree with them, kills aliens just for not being human, even those aliens that aren't hostile to humanity, and kill thousands a day just to feed the parasite of a god they worship.

Meanwhile, Khorne promotes heroic, honourable warriors, Nurgle promotes fatherly care and helps those in need, Slaanesh advocates working towards perfection, and excels in music, art, and many other things of beauty, and Tzeentch promotes the gathering and advancement of knowledge.

Just saying, but depending on your point of view, Chaos is a lot less evil than the Imperium. Saying that they are 100% evil or depraved, as others here have said, is just wrong.

evil and chaos what a fun convo

chaos doesn`t always have too be evil just as evil doesn`t allways have too be chaotic?

try the lord of skulls? who would he suport the honor bound master swordsman that wants too rule his ppl and is willing too kill who ever gets in his way and offers there blood as a offering? or the madman willing too kill for whatever reson he can think of and couldn`t care if it his or someone els there blood

i`ll tell you who both, or who ever wins between the two if they where ever too meet!

you can play some realy scumy evil ppl in both DH or RT and if you want even in DW. you can even play them on the edge if your realy want too!

look at the scum cracter in DH become the ultimet con man lie too get closer too criminal, heretics, heretecks and god emperor only knows what els. risking one soul and sanity for mankind. powerful stuff!

but see it from the other side manitutalif shadow goverment officals, corrupt leaders. brutaly enforced imperial laws but on many planets no real justice but one can make for one self.

i can see why one would want too turn too chaos. yes its evil and bad for you. but realy if all things around you are this bad wouldn`t you like too get somekind of contol back???

and if that could only happen with a bargain do a dark god well how much would you be willing too give too make things better for yourself

Imperial of Man is just as evil as Chaos. Hell the tau are communist nazis and they are the nice ones. Nobody is good in this setting unless you go down to the individual him or her self. You just got to look at it this way. You want to be a loyal soldier, or a free roaming bandit? Both got benefits and drawbacks.

The IoM has a reason, though. They believe it's the right thing and the only way to protect mankind.

Chaos simply does it for the lulz. Because its followers feel good about it. And I do think that is fairly obvious when we look at the Chaos Gods, their daemons, their followers, and what they do.

Believing doesn't mean that you are any less evil. Just because burning a thousand people to stop a supposed witch threat is believed to be the right thing to do doesn't mean your any less of a monster. Nor is slaying a whole race of alien beings just because you fear they will kill your race. For all we know there was no witch threat and the witch hunters went over zealous. For all we know the alien race is rather peaceful and primitive. Does IoM make the attempt to at least appologize for their actions? Do they try to make amends after finding out that their paranoia was proven false and that innocent human beings were put to death? No they do not. IoM is a lying, hypocratic, and the biggest idiot in the game. The whole protecting mankind is just a way to get rid of the guilt. A polite lie to disguise the fact that they are monsters.

Chaos is at least being honest about their wickedness.

Stormcrow77 said:

I've run Evil D&D games before and I'll probably end up running an Evil Black Crusade game. Right now my Rogue Trader game tinkers with Evil regularly. So I'll answer your question on my thoughts...

You simply need to get this Postmodern Relativism out of your mind on what Evil is or means. It's all a load of bull. Evil is not a point of view, but this shouldn't concern you. Evil in most games is about Power. What you can get your players to do through the lure of power. I'll be the 1st to point out this confronts a Medieval view of the world and humanity but it hasn't lost any of its magic. As a Storyteller for many WoD and nWoD games for the past 20 years I'll tell you that there is nothing greater to a story than a difficult choice. Do you choose Power, immediately gratifying, or resist and choose something greater? (This has nothing to do with Foucault either.)

When I run a game stupidity, regardless of intention, is never richly rewarded. Sometimes I'll reward the minstrel if they play the fool for an NPC. But what most people don't get is that Evil will turn on itself and often this begins with the players. With a "Chaos" master they will serve their Master. Why? Power. That's why Evil is enticing. I suggest you read "Mein Kampf" or "The Doctrine of Fascism" and you'll be surprised by how alluring it is. Evil is attractive. Milton portrayed Satan to be a rational, logical, and charismatic persona in "Paradise Lost." Why would mankind fall to an eternal struggle of poverty, misery, only to succumb to death and damnation unless they were sold a false bill of goods the greatest charlatan in the history of all mankind? If you love classic TV watch The Twilight Zone episode called "Howling Man." Spoiler: evil is portrayed as sane while good is ridiculous. Granted, all of this can be done in a "good" campaign (and there is a certain appeal in this as well) but evil campaigns make it easier. Evil can be rational, logical, and reasonable.

P.S. Mustache twirling is makes for excellent caricatures!

Lynata said:

There's always a difference between Chaos (the force/entities that are the Ruinous Powers and their Daemons) and the Servants of Chaos (the creatures who follow them). Nobody seeks the favour of the Chaos Gods without a reason, and as much as service to Chaos produces a certain destruction of the self, a servant of Chaos is still a being capable of independent thought and reasoning distinct from the insane pseudoconsciousness of the Gods he fights in the name of.

It's why, for example, Abaddon the Despoiler has turned down the offer of Daemonhood so many times - apotheosis brings with it a loss of focus, a change in perspective that makes mortal ambition worthless, and his goals are too important to him to sacrifice to easily.

Personal ambition, and the reasons why someone would serve Chaos, are significant matters not to be discarded lightly. This is one of the things that makes 40k what it is - that every atrocity, no matter who commits it, happens for a reason, that every monstrous act was in aid of some purpose that can be justified in some way to someone.

MILLANDSON said:

MILLANDSON said:

"Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, just that it does." That's pure heroism. It doesn't matter if you kill 20 warriors or 20 orphans it's all "BLOOD FOR THE BLOODGOD, SKULLS FOR HIS THROOOOOOOOOOONE!!!!!!" Nurgle's care is painful and infectious, Slaanesh is the prince of excess, the artworks created by his devotees seem at some stage like ugly caricatures to normal people (Fulgrim) and Tzeentch mutates you like the rest.

Nobody argues that the Imperium is good, but let's assume you want to be crazy in 40k and "heal the world, make it a better place" and have to create a stack of characters (who are supposed to be successful) for that. How many chaos worshipers would be among them?

redhead222 said:

You can be evil without being chaotic, but you can't stay not evil while being chaotic. And I think the forum header says it all "Wealth, power, and happiness await. The only price is your humanity." While humanity in 40k is pretty sh*tty their humanity is also their only redeeming characteristic. We know from our own history that they can become better again, that's something chaos would take from them.

Snowman0147 said:

Since when? They are honest if they arrive with an army of chaos space marines. Until then they will promise you everything.

Atomic_Pope said:

Unless your players built their characters with the Book of Vile Darkness I wouldn't compare D&D evil to 40k chaos.

Atomic_Pope said:

As Star Wars Saga Edition teaches us instant power corrupts and makes the GM confiscate your character sheet. Personally I don't believe into any direct relation between power and evil. It's always about what you do with the power available to you.

Atomic_Pope said:

Humans have always been easily fooled by religions or ideologies. Heck not long ago a bunch of people believed that the world was ending because some nutjob said that he calculated it from the bible (which says that no one will know when it happens, not mentioning that taking any religious scripture seriously is not the wisest thing you can do). You don't have to be a great charlatan to fool people into anything, just being a charlatan is enough. Humanity is stupid. Sure, a sorceror of Tzeentch may seem saner than an Imperial Cleric. But he's the one who got cheated out of his soul

N0-1_H3r3 said:

In the end you serve the Chaos gods how they want it. It's just a matter of time. Abbadon tries his best to bring the Imperium to its knees. And he probably does a better job than he would do as a demon prince (Abbadon can't be banned to the warp for a thousand years). But show me one NPC who worships Chaos over a long time and hasn't turned into a depraved murderer.

i mostly agree with the above. its what you do, why you do it and whats the reasoning behind it for you doing it in the first place

Mjoellnir said:

They have and I did. D&D Evil can make 40k Evil look like kindergarten, crayons, and mud pies.

Mjoellnir said:

SWS is a little more complicated then that. There's Destiny and Force Points. Everything serves the story. Destiny is guiding the characters and their actions. It's not heavy-handed GM Fiat. That's the bare minimum for understanding the system and RPG Universe it operates in.

Mjoellnir said:

Like I said, "Mein Kampf" is alluring. Your hatred of humanity is in perfect agreement.

Mjoellnir said:

Lorgar and Magnus, two of history's most infamous Daemon Princes, began their descent towards Chaos believing in the ascendance and betterment of mankind through truth, reason and understanding. A character serving Chaos can have the noblest of intentions...

Mjoellnir said:

It's arguable that the Chaos Gods even want anything - they aren't, afterall, in any way comparable to the minds of a human being. In my opinion, the Chaos Gods have more in common with natural disasters than creatures capable of thought, given their dispersed non-linear perspective and mono-emotional nature.

The thing about a setting based on a wargame is that its most infamous characters are almost invariably warriors. The best-known Champions of Chaos (that is, those in Codex: Chaos Space Marines) had already lived centuries-long existences of murder and warfare before they discovered Chaos.

Nobody is claiming that Chaos is good... but what people are claiming is that Chaos is multifaceted and diverse, and that the Servants of Chaos aren't unplayable just because they commit atrocities (quite frankly, anyone who is opposed to playing a character aligned to genocidal madmen should steer clear of 40k altogether)... because like any character they will have justifications for their actions, and goals and ambitions that drive those justifications. It's also up to the character how much he is willing to embrace the Chaos Gods, and how much of himself he is willing to sacrifice...

Atomic_Pope said:

I doubt that even with the BoVD, but you can have your opinion.

Atomic_Pope said:

Who was talking about GM fiat? There are definite rules when you get darkside points, and it is also stated that when the number of darkside points matches your wisdom score you automatically become a GM character unless the GM wants to allow the player to continue as a campaign anti-hero. Maybe you should read the rules section again? And the story purpose of that mechanic is partly questionable. Unless you studied with the Aiing-Ti monks you can fall to the darkside purely from powering a starship engine with force lightning like in TFU.

Atomic_Pope said:

You know, originally I didn't want to say it that way, but after that "hatred of humanity" comment I don't really see another way to put it. "Mein Kampf" and similar crap is alluring to stupid people.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

When did Lorgar get retconned? Last time I read about him he was the moron who fell to chaos because the Emperor didn't want to be worshiped as a god (at least then he definitely wasn't one, so much for Lorgar being for truth, reason and understanding) and chastised him for forcing religion on people and building cathedrals instead of conquering new planets like a proper primarch. And Magnus beautifully proves my point. You can start out with the best intentions serving chaos, but you can't stay that way. If you want people to be successful at changing 40k for the better chaos worshipers simply don't work.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The gods reward their champions for furthering their goals, so I guess they have to have some. Like mass murder, Eldar souls etc. Also there is as far as I remember a source that both Slaanesh and Nurgle wanted Isha as a consort.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

True, the game is based on a wargame, but even in novels or the RPG I don't know of any "normal" chaos worshipers. The artists who got corrupted following Fulgrim didn't remain much nicer then the Emperor's Children, only less competent.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Who says that servants of Chaos are unplayable? I only say that I'm not interested in playing them, just like I'm not interested playing a Sith in Star Wars, a chaotic evil drow in D&D, a Shadow Agent in Babylon 5, an Obsidian Order agent in Star Trek, a toxic shaman in Shadowrun, a Reaver in Firefly, a Sabbat Vampire or Black Spiral Dancer in WoD or an acolyte in Dark Heresy. And that it is up to the character how much he is willing to embrace the Chaos Gods is something I doubt. You can deny them, you can pay them lip service (there someone in The Emperor Protects who did exactly that but took care that he remained as uncorrupted as possible while still working for the Alpha Legion), or you can serve them. The moment you start the latter and accept gifts from them you're on the highway to hell unless an Inquisitor likes you very much and has you exorcised and mind-scrubbed.

Now i realize that Chaos does not equal evil in a philosophical sense, Hell i ave a Chaos star on my left for arm. But some great points were brought up that i would like to touch on.

Yes most Evil campaigns are about power. And that is usually there down fall. The players start to fight amongst themselves. I see this being true esp in DH if you have players mixed together from all 4 different gods of Chaos.

Perhaps it is a little closed minded of me but i just dont have any desire to run in/play in a game where wickedness is encouraged. I will explain why. A long time ago (96-97ish) in a AD&D game of Evil PC's i had a player describe how his character (a orc shaman) was going to **** a elven captive. The argument that followed was heated and pretty much killed the campaign.Even though he had a good argument "Im just playing my character"

Yes, it is a game. Yes, it is a pretended. But some lines of Evil should not be crossed. And there is the crux of the whole point. If you even restrict yourself as a player or your players (if your running the game) your not running a true game. If you even hold back a little , it all becomes a waste of time.

MILLANDSON said:

While all of this is true, the main difference between the Imperium and Chaos is that power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and absolute corruption is evil. Yes, most of the "heroes" in the Imperium were people of power, and consequently corrupt. However, most of the masses of the Imperium have little if any say in what they can and cannot do throughtout their lives (forge worlds are a brilliant example of this), and therefore have no power. Thus, in theory, they are not corrupt, because while their actions and the products of their actions fuel the goals of corrupt people and organizations, the masses themselves are have no power over whether or not they choose to commit said actions. again forge worlds are a brilliant example of this: the menial who builds base components for battle titans. the components he builds create a machine that will potentially kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people, an action many would beleive to be corrupt . However, because the menial probably doesnt know exactly what those components make, and because he has no real power over the creation of these components (he could simply stop making them, but he would be shot, disposed of, and replaced the same day), he is not corrupt.

Chaos is totally different, because it evens the playing field. if a heretic spreads enough destruction and Chaos taint around, the ruinous powers will (in theory) grant him absolute power over his immediate surroundings. however, absolute power over one's immediate surroundings translates only into plain power over, say, a country. that first taste of power will leave you wanting more, until you can control everything and anything there is to control. In this sense, the power you were given has corrupted you absolutely, and made you evil. Thus, Chaos is definatively evil. the Imperium is morally ambiguous.

Snowman0147 said:

I can't really agree here - motivation is a huge factor, for with it comes the chance to react differently, either because the circumstances change or because the character in question has always had "two sides" depending on who he is dealing with. Imperial doctrine may teach genocide and hatred against any who are different either in body or in mind, but it also teaches mercy and solidarity towards any who are part of one's own group. Chaos doesn't do that. For Chaos, cooperation is an all too temporary means to an end, and nobody gives a f**k if you get murdered by one of your peers. That is the freedom that Chaos teaches.

Make no mistake, the Imperium is evil. But it is most definitively the lesser evil.

And I agree with what Mjoellnir mentioned - when aligning yourself with the forces of Chaos, you can start out with the best intentions of how you want to make the world a better place and how you just want peace and prosperity for everyone ... but you sure won't keep them. And I think that's pretty obvious when looking at how Chaos changes people and planets. The road down to damnation is inevitable.

And I'm looking forward to see where that road takes me once BC is released.

Imperial doctrine may teach genocide and hatred against any who are different either in body or in mind, but it also teaches mercy and solidarity towards any who are part of one's own group.

Er... solidarity yes, though I'd rather call it conformity. Mercy? Seriously? Assuming we're not talking "The Emperor's Mercy": Where? When?

I guess the main question is whether Chaos characters die soon enough before they live to see themselves become the villain, as the quote goes. Or whether they at least achieve their main objective and don't pervert it in their subsequent downward spiral.

Cifer said:

The only doctors on a Chaos World are probably the ones who would rather conduct horrible experiments on you rather than giving you a bandage.

The Orders Hospitaller are probably the most prominent example that spring to mind. Just a tiny speck of serenity in a sea of violence (and yes, at times adding to it), but proof nonetheless.

...right up until they decide to euthanize you because you can count to eleven without removing your shoes. And even before that, if you bring up one group of orders of the sisterhood against the multitude of slavedrivers that whip workers to death to encourage the others, I'm sure Chaos will likewise have at least a few people that aren't into it For The Evulz.

The only doctors on a Chaos World are probably the ones who would rather conduct horrible experiments on you rather than giving you a bandage.

I think we'll see about that as soon as the book comes out. Until now, we've seen Chaos either as marauding warbands and crusades or through the lense of Imperial protagonists. Very little of the "civilian" chaos has ever been revealed, but I don't think the Famous Four give out Dark Pacts with their mind-altering effects to every Shlub. Many of the inhabitants of a chaos world will still be at the core human. They live under the rule of terrible overlords, but then again, who doesn't in 40k?

And regarding the horrible experiments... the Heretek has been unveiled and a driving force for many of them is curiosity . Not lust for power or slaughter, but the simple thirst for knowledge that the Mechanicus declares forbidden. It goes even further: The hereteks are the guys who are at least sometimes content to share their knowledge. I don't know about you, but I'd generally feel safer if my doctor knew what his gadgets did rather than that the machine spirits within would mend my wounds if he said the prayer of cauterization, pushed the sacred line-in-a-circle rune and pointed it towards my body.

Cifer said:

yes the orders hospitaller does nice thing out of faith and merce for the ppl and the grunts on the ground. but they will just as soon shoot you dead or burn down the barracks or any number of horibal thing (for the good of the empire and too save there souls)

hereteck working as doctor yes he might have a better idear of what he is doing and what all the gadgets are. however in his thirst for knowlege how do i know he is not going too experiment on me??

anyway still very intrested in this, sound like fun

ps if you don`t want too play even charaters or evil campains try oh i don`t know arbitors or SOB or working for the church or something like that all intresting view and not evil on its self (coruption, drugs,.how much or how little do you enforce the law and how / the politics of faith and how too control your followers just some idears