Opened my copy of The Witch's Song and as I was sorting the components I reflected on the fact that already the hardbacks were no longer complete - that in fact, if my players or I want to refer to them to get a complete list of their options they're not all there, and we're now back to having to go through all the cards, or me make a list of them, or something.

I like WFRP3, I really do, but this whole hardbacks/components/release-new-bits-and-bobs-as-we-go-along thing is really a bit of a mess. What's the point of players going through the list of Tactics in their book, for example, and me having to remember "oh yes and there's these five from Witch's Song and Omens of War as well".

Personally, I think they should have left the listings out of the hardbacks, and released them instead as free downloadable PDFs that are kept updated with every release. That would have been the only sensible solution to the problem. As it is, I have now lots of pages of incomplete listings in the hardbacks. It just doesn't seem to have been thought through.

Normally I don't whinge so much about games, I must point out, but WFRP is my long-term favourite, I like the new system and I think it's clever; it's just frustrating to see things not done with the right amount of thought and care.

It's a dilemma. I love the Players Guide, think its the best thing to give to players to get them acquainted and the bulk of their options. But the expansions are built round the card decks as dynamic collections of rules, actions etc that grow over time.
So we're back to card shuffling and sharing (which is fine, but does render a big portion of the guides redundant). I think I'll opt for just letting the players get familiar with the guides and use those limited lists till they are up to speed. Then either let them loose on the updated decks or compile lists of the names of new Talents, Careers and Actions to bring their attention to the additions. If any grab their fancy they can hunt them out of the decks.

This game has tried a lot of new things on many levels, would be hard to get such alchemy right first go so I think that makes me more inclined to be forgiving. Also makes for interesting musing as to what might have been a better way to deliver the game. Like you say, the addition of some kind of digital download that was updated after each release with complete lists and info on Careers, Talents and Action cards. It wouldn't need to include rules and I'd happily pay $10 bucks after every couple of releases for such a PDF.

Or, it could be an iPhone/iPad application, updated every time there's a new release.

So you think the supplements should be free if you bought a core book?

I don't see what the issue is. You buy a core rules book, a supplement comes out and now the core is now not 100% of the material. It happens in all games. Just because this game has cards and punch-outs doesn't make it any different.

If you want it all in a hardbound format for the new material, then you should be asking for a "compendium" of the changes. FFG may listen to that if enough people are favorable to that. Complaining that material that one group pays retail price for isn't free to your group isn't going to change anything.

a. The hardbacks were sold on the point that they contained complete listings of all the components. Barely a few weeks later this isn't true.

b. FFG is not releasing stand-alone supplemental rules, but bits and bobs and add-ons (a few talents here, an action card there); very different from the usual RPG supplements.

c. Considering this approach, there should be some kind of easily updateable complete listing available for players, either PDF or app-based, so there is one place where all the information can be accessed. At the moment, it is incredibly confusing for a player, for example, to know all the options available to him when spending experience points. The current system is making the game unwiedly and difficult to play.

d. This approach would not affect retail sales in any way; people will still buy the supplements for all the other material in them.

I don't know where you got the idea that I wanted free supplements - geez, I have bought every WFRP product ever released from the original book onwards. What I do want is a continually updated list of available actions, talents, etc so we can play the game easily and smoothly, instead of trying to remember which stuff is in the core book listings and which has been released since here and there. Seems quite reasonable to me.

Oh, so you want an index . That wasn't quite clear from your post.

Technically, they have that already (In Support , under Resources, Card and Component List ). I say "technically," because it hasn't been updated since February.

Wow, I really appear to be expressing myself badly. I don't want an index either, I want the list pages in the GM, Player's and Creature Guides (talents, actions, creature actions, diseases, mutations etc) available in a separate PDF or app format that is kept updated as new components are added, since it appears that every adventure and supplement will be adding cards. They can even charge for it if they want. But at the moment, the hardback listings are already incomplete and the plethora of components being added all the time makes for an unwieldy game system where I or my players can't easily access all the information we need.

They would have to charge for it, because every mechanical addition is contained on the cards - new tactics, new diseases, new spells, etc. If they put a free pdf with all of the details on these cards, there would be little incentive for many (myself admitted) to buy supplements. I don't buy the supplements for the adventures or fluff. I buy it for the mechanical things: new rules, new actions, new wounds, new creatures, etc.

To the best of my knowledge, FFG were explicit that the core books would contain everything released up to x point and wouldn't be inclusive of supplements coming after.

Maybe I'm in them minority, but I love that all of these things are in cards. Now instead of having to have an updated document or refer across multiple reference supplements for careers or spells or actions or whatever, I have the entire list in a deck. When you sort out the cards using the page protectors (which admittedly adds cost) it makes for a very good reference book that players can peruse just as easily as they would in a book. The downside to that of course is that it would have to be shared out among the group. I have never seen an RPG that provides a complete reference to all skills, feats, etc. that is updated with every new release outside of the open source d20 (which didn't include all of the supplements anyway). I just don't see this problem as being unique to WFRP I guess, but I love how it deals with it by allowing your decks to be complete and randomizable.

UniversalHead said:

So, just to be clear, you want the new information in the hardback format. So, for example, a new career comes out and the "listing" would have all the career advances, traits, skills, abilities, action, etc?

I don't think U.H. is looking for a hardback per se. Rather, a listing that can be easily accessed that has each action, talent, yaddayadda so that players can make educated decisions on the abilities/choices available to them.

Assuming that is closer to the point, I think we could try to put something like that together as a community project. The only major caveat (that I can see) is that we couldn't really include all the crunch (like the exact wording on an action card) because that would allow people to circumnavigate the purchase process (as difficult as that might be...it could be done). But we could totally get a running spreadsheet or something that had the other semi-useful data on it.

Something like: talent/action/thing name, set of origin, traits, and the type of talent/action/thing it is (ranged, melee, reputation, rank 1, etc). You could assist further with player choices by categorizing the options so that (even lacking the nuts-n-bolts of a card) a person could get a rough idea of how it would help their character. I think we could make a pretty good case for that being fair use of FFG's IP and not have to worry too much about GW and the more stringent UK IP regulations (since GW doesn't own all the action names, traits, etc that FFG puts out).

Is that more what you were thinking U.H.? I'd be willing to help out with it if someone were to get that rolling. Of course I may have totally missed the mark as well

I agree with Universal Head. Having an updated list for all actions really is a must for this game. I also feel frustrated with the data as presented. I LOVE the cards, but it is hard to just sort through cards and figure out what all your options are as a character or even a GM. As far as diseases or mutations etc go, I don't really care. All that stuff is for me is equated to all the old fashioned critical hit charts back from old games like MERP. Reading it for the first time when it is inflicted is half the fun. The other half of the fun is killing PCs with em! Ha!

Until the Players guide came out with the slightly accurate big list, I never realized how many, say, options I had for different characteristics. For instance, I might think that all action items for melee attacks are based on STR. But really, some are based on AGI, or FEL or whatever. Plus as if you have other skills maybe trained, you can take advantage of those as well. You may not know that to take best advantage of cut and run that you want AGI plus Athletics trained for instance, because, though the cards are there, with just a stack of cards, you just have a pile of data. With a list, you have information that you can sort of organize. With a stack of cards, players or even GMs may or may not understand all there options. With a consolidated list, you can really see all the different ways you can develop your various characters and also enjoy the game.

I am not disparaging the action card system, I LOVE IT. I am experiencing a quasi renaissance with regards to RPGs because of this game specifically.

I echo UH's thoughts. I want a quick and easy to sift through resource that is COMPLETE with each update. If that takes a yearly compendium, so be it. BUT the errors/omissions/etc present in the Guides/Vaults needs to be remedied before I would trust such a product.

Callidon said:

Precisely my argument, that it couldn't possibly include all of the mechanics with it. But he seems to suggest that a detailed index like you propose wouldn't be sufficient. I'd LOVE to see precisely that though - a detailed index with a minor amount of detail for each card, specifically for the action cards: Name, Type, traits listed, test used, etc. You could leave off the results entirely and it would still be very useful.

While we're at it, I'd LOVE to buy an errata pack of cards for careers, actions and other cards that need errata.

Yep, not asking for anything for free, and also love the decks. I've bought all but the vaults and am happy with the cards, dynamic decks and the way the game is presented.
But I also like to have some player info presented in charts/table form and am willing to pay extra for it rather than expect for free. I find some things easier to take in as tables when Im trying to get a broad picture of what is available and also think its a good way to present info to players. Hense I love the guides. In the mean time, sure, handing them a deck is fine. But there is an oppotunity for another product there for me to spend $$ there

Updates to the free Living Indexes would be great, they are well done. And I'd make do with that but the -option- to buy updated data in charts and tables appeals to me. Pdf, Bi-annual hard back compendium, arkham horror style app, or, hell even loose sheets that could be added to special ring bound folders would satisfy. Set the price at whatever you like, just nice to have the option to be able to hand a player something that gives them all up to date player specific info without needing to plow through all my nicely stacked decks . Need only be player related cards really. FFG could charge what they like, I'd bite.

I honestly believe the best thing fans can do regarding the Player and GM Guide is to pretend it doesn't exist.

Really? I dunno. I rely on mine, still holds the majority of the game in an alternative format to the decks, plus errated rules. Win-win from my perspective. And cheap at $40 from Book Depository . But I always saw them as a handy supplement to the core rather than an alternative.

I'm on the fence with the hardback vs. components issue but the thing that bothers me is that the WHFRP Lite players are left high and dry. The idea was to be able to play with or without components, which is clearly not possible considering the expansions are component only. The solution would be regular compendium releases or a thin pamphlet style booklet in the boxed sets that sums up the cards in the Lite format.

You'll just have to type out the cards onto a sheet as many people have done in the past.

Here is the WFRP font: gallery.rptools.net/v/contrib/emirikol7/

jh

Finally, some spirited discussion instead of being told to rewrite my post over and over!

I will point out that the hardcover books were explicitly explained by FFG that they would ONLY contain material up to a specific supplement, and that additional materials in future supplements would only be made available from that supplement and not in a book. If you thought differently, you were mistaken and that is not FFG's fault, because they made it very clear how the hardcover books were going to work. In fact, the mere fact that FFG made the hardcover books is a bonus for players, as they weren't originally planned as part of the line.

I think your request is only realistic if it was merely a list of talent/action/career names. Any further information, such as how any of them work or any detail, is specific to the supplement they come in and should not be given out for free and it is unrealistic to expect it to be so. There isn't a lot you can do with just the name, though.

Now, perhaps a purchasable pdf would work, but people would need to pay (at least something) each time it was updated to include new information from new expansions (if they wanted the newest version, anyway).

I agree that it would be nice to have a single list for each of the cards with their information, but from a reasonable business perspective, FFG cannot just give that information away, as it is part of what people who purchase the supplement are paying for.

dvang said:

Living Index (pdf, 628 kb) updated 10/27/10

Dvang,

That may be so, but now FFG's set an expectation in some players' minds on how they will be able to access the data in the future. I expect to see the long form for each card in the expansion books as well. Since I haven't seen boo about anything since the guides containing such I'm going to assume they don't repeat the card information.

Anything else, after having seen how easy it was to do in the guides, is unacceptable for me as a consumer. I don't want to wait a year for another 'compilation'. And, if the plan was to never do something like the guides again (creating a one-stop reference for the set cards) then what was the point of it in the first place?

keltheos said:

The point of the guides was to satisfy a portion of the community that asked for a way to play the basic game using fewer components. FFG was quite up front when they announced their release, that these guides were not supplanting the normal supplements and that they do not plan to release additional guides after these. The main focus of these guides were, basically, for the core materials and rules to be represented in a book format for those that wanted them. The guides are a concession/bonus from FFG, since their plan and focus has been, and is, on the card mechanics format, not book format.

What is in the current guide is what is on the card, excepting the artwork. Part of the value of the supplement is getting the new cards (actions, careers, etc). Thus, that information should really be purchased, and not given away freely. As I said, I could see a list of careers / action cards, perhaps even their type being free. Further detail, such as the mechanics, really shouldn't be free and I personally wouldn't expect it to be.

When you throw "basic" in there it makes a lot more sense as to their thinking.

But then it still begs the question why bother appeasing your customers with the guides only once? If their emphasis is on the cards as the draw then creating the guides as a one-time thing simply creates further demand for them in the future.

I don't think FFG should give away anything, but (take the Faith supplement for example - obviously) if the guides sold well and were well received for what they attempted to do then wouldn't it make sense to charge a few dollars more and insert a few extra pages in Faith that included a summary of the new Miracles, Locations, Items, etc in following with the format? Heck, if the worry is that they'll be too easily accessed once the PDF is released, remove those from the PDF to maintain the same format the other PDFs have come in.

Right now the biggest hindrance for me as a GM is the constant referencing of cards that I and many others think should be easily referenced in one place (ala the Guides), vs. card sleeves. It also creates an easily-accessed second copy for the GM to refer to on the fly in-game.