I've palyed today one regional with a Dwarf deck...it was okay..except against Empire...dear FFG, please test the cards before the print. I'm from Italy and unfortunatly here the people play only PRO, in USA the people is different, U play Chaos cause U like Chaos for example...but here the people test for something like 7 hours per night.

The problem is the balancment. Empire is too strong. Okay the FFG is printing a lot of cards for the other decks but print Empire as well.

My question is:someone agree with me or not? In my country the game is near to death for this reason.

Help us!

Welcome to the jungle mate!

I live in ireland where people play for fun rather than killing themselves on tournaments but even here it is obvious that Empire is broken, like Dwarves before restrictions. The only hope is to either restrict more Empire cards or FFG will release some extra cards for other races leaving Empire as it is right now. Unfortunately after last battlepack it doesn't seem thet Empire will lose the crown...

Finally someone agree with me!!

First problem the QUEST..when the quest is in game the Empire Win..and U can't brake the quest o.O

Every pack they print some power cards for the other armie but..they print more Powerful cards for Empire!! o.O is unbelievable...

daniello_s said:

please post in the same post in Deck Building please =)

I can tell you that you are definitely not alone and if you check other threads you will find a lot of similar observations. But, we can still hope that there is some hidden trick that will be discovered at some point and allow other faction become as strong as Empire.=)

I thought that the banning of that one Quest fixed things? Is Empire still too powerful? If so, why? (I've been outta the loop for several months now.)

It is in current meta as there is no one who found a deck that would work against Empire and other decks well enough. You can see that in results of Stahleck tournament which happened a week ago. Huge amount of decks was Empire, while the only decks that were able to compete were Dwarves, which could be pretty strong against Empire specifically.

The reason is an amount of cards that allow you good early start and cards that allow you to affect your opponent + Verena.

I am in ireland too

Usually when I play who ever is the weakest player will get the offer of the most powerful deck ( Dwarf ) from the cards we have.

Never played in a tournament but would think if the Empire is such a issue it will be fixed by house rules or power boosts for the other factions come next cycle.

It's already fixed. Suprisingly restriction for Will of Electors was a good thing, now not everybody has to take 3xLong Winter.

Virgo said:

It may depend on the preferences of gaming community. In Poland we had the biggest tournament this far (79 players) and Verena wasn't an issue. Would you restrict it along Will Of Electors or ban it?

Personnaly i would ban it. I think if it had been banned (or errated) the RL shouldn't have so much Empire cards in it.

Verena is unbalanced even amongst the other resets because it also destroys supports and can protect his owner. The gap of units/supports is still in favor of Verena players.

I don't really see the reason to ban Verena because to use it efficiently you now have to include Wood Elves in your deck (for Pageant of Shrikes) and there are others, better empire builds. If it is so dominant in your environment why don't you come up with a deck to punish it?

Including wood elves isn't necessary. You only need Judgement, Will of the electors, Long Winter and Priest of Verena for example. About 12 cards is enough to regularly diminish opponent forces while yours don't suffer as well. And it leaves enough room for another strategy (control, rush) and a good economy.

One can compare with Troll Vomit and Flames of the Phoenix but they don't destroy supports and don't protect their owner. Maybe Judgement shouldn't have include support destruction to be balanced…

Our other decks already includes anti-verena solutions but it takes deck slots or forces to play development-based strategies. All strategies can be countered by another global strategy like unit control. Your cards used to control rush decks are usualy also useful against other strategies. Judgement of Verena is an exception. This single card forces all strategies to use development control (in a lesser way) and this control is quite exclusively reserved for this card.

That's why I would have ban it (and not restrict so much cards).

Ellyrik said:

Exactly, so many Empire restricts really saddens me and I don't even include Verena in my deck. First you buy Wilhelm or Derricksburg Forge and minute later you find out you are not able to use them.

I think that generally speaking Empire strenght is the potential ablility to control both units and supports (i.e. Osterknacht Elite, Rodrik Raiders + nasty tactics allowing them show up again and again), most other decks lack this. Add some support control possibilities to Dark Elves or some unit control chance to Orcs or Dwarves and Empire would be "stopped".

I am not for a race for armament. I mean : leveling up other factions to reach Empire's level. I'd rather like an efficient level down of empire. No, in fact I'd rather remove one vicious strategy by removing only one card. Empire has still other good strategies.

Support control shouldn't be too important. In Magic : the gathering, detroying all lands can be fatal. But what about destroying all opponent's permanents (lands, creatures, …) on turn 3 or 4? That's what Judgement of Verena do in Warhammer : Invasion.

I just don't think removing Verena would be enough (however I strongly support the idea it should be banned or have errata or exchanged with Empire Epic Spell, it looks like similar power level to the other epics ;D). To be completely honest I do not like every a-bombs, i.e. Troll Vomit (and it even has nothing to do with their true competitive potential, I just do not like the idea of hard reset). But JoV is probably the worst right now, I agree.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, even with Verena removed, Empire still has the best, relatively cheap control over game elements, sniping supports with Rodrik's and moving/recalling units with many other cheap cards in the same time makes this faction truly formidable. Adding Churches and Iron Will for protection…

I think other factions lack this flexibility, in general. There is nearly always something, that they are practically helpless against, at least without some sophisticated/expensive combo. When I play Dwarves, units (like first-turn Sorcerer of Tzeentch for example) hurt me very much and I don't really have viable option to get rid of them (or have I?). When I play hp-reducing Dark Elves, all support cards hurts me badly, as only thing I can control are units, etc. Empire is flexible and I think only deck-discarding Dark Elves are more annoying than Karl-Franz's minions right now (personal opinion, I hate discard face of Delves )

"And it leaves enough room for another strategy (control, rush) and a good economy."

- No, it doesn't. Empire needs either Derricksburg or Warpstone for it's economy so it shouldn't take Will from the restricted list.

"Our other decks already includes anti-verena solutions but it takes deck slots or forces to play development-based strategies. All strategies can be countered by another global strategy like unit control. Your cards used to control rush decks are usualy also useful against other strategies. Judgement of Verena is an exception. This single card forces all strategies to use development control (in a lesser way) and this control is quite exclusively reserved for this card."

- Development control is just another type of control, the same as units and supports. You say if it wasn't for Verena you wouldn't take development control at all. So you would lose every time to UTS Chaos.

"That's why I would have ban it (and not restrict so much cards)."

- Every empire card got on the restriction list for a reason. I wasn't sure about Will but not having to take 3xLong Winter in every deck is a nice thing I guess. I could think about swapping Wilhelm with Friedrich and that's it.

"First you buy Wilhelm or Derricksburg Forge and minute later you find out you are not able to use them."

- We already discussed it. Better have cards restricted or even banned than force them to quit the game.

"I think that generally speaking Empire strenght is the potential ablility to control both units and supports (i.e. Osterknacht Elite, Rodrik Raiders + nasty tactics allowing them show up again and again), most other decks lack this. Add some support control possibilities to Dark Elves or some unit control chance to Orcs or Dwarves and Empire would be "stopped"."

It is already stopped. Restrictions for Forge, Rodrik and Will fixed it. Making every faction good in every field would just create more pre-restrictions Empires…

"When I play hp-reducing Dark Elves, all support cards hurts me badly, as only thing I can control are units,"

- Burn It Down/Withering Hex?

Current imperial economy with Will of the electors : Sons of coin, Hunters, Village, Knights Panther, Zoo (although not starting). Sons of coin replaced Forge or Excavation.

What is UTS chaos please?

Iif UTS stands for Unleashing the spell, I've never faced such a deck unfortunately. But it seems to be a late game Tactics and above all it doesn't prevent your opponent from playing.

Virgo said:

Maybe "Better than (…)", but still unpleasant.

Virgo said:

I don't know if it is stopped, really, I still find it pretty hard to play against.

In my opinion Rodrik's as most valuable of restricted card (even though I miss Wilhelm and wasn't even able to actually use Forge, as I bought it a while before restricts… so please understand a little bit of frustration here.

Anyway, I still have both support and unit control in one deck, both partially in form of units (Osterknacht Elite + Rodrik Raiders), which can be placed in many roles - boosts my own economy, defend or attack, while destroying effectively opponents eco in the same time. I would call it quite superior flexibility.

Virgo said:

Yeah, but you will agree, that Rodrik's is SO much better option than Burn it Down, don't you? Besides, in Empire deck you can have both, if you really want, but even more funny - with Empire tactics and units controls (Osterknacht Elite again for example, or Call for Reserves… or Called Back, or…) you can use one Rodrik a few times, other factions won't do this with Burn it Down, not to mention developments needed. A side note is that tactics like Call for Reserves or Mastering the spell are also very flexible and could be used in many, many different situations…

Withering Hex - I put this card into category: "only because I don't have anything better". Unfortunately, not all supports would be pain because of their hammers only, a lot of them are dangerous just because they exists.

Of course I don't say that Empire is auto-winner or anything like that, however I do say the overall flexibility, multitude of options, gives this faction upper hand, advantage. Maybe slight, but still SOME advantage.

P.S. By the way, last evening I was kicked a few times by friend playing my Empire against newly assembled DarkElf/Necromancy deck I wanted to check, as well as a few other decks I assembled to try them in fight, some of them built for fun, some more "serious". ****, and this guy played only for his third or fourth time! Shame… :>

Ellyrik said:

You can't really say that Sons Of Coin or Knight Panther replaced Forge, because these are units and they die the next turn against Chaos and the same turn they hit the table against DE

Virgo said:

@ Paradoks: i totally agree with your last post!