I'm new to the 40K RPG books, but I feel I have a decent understanding of how they work now. However, I was browsing the Deathwatch book RItes of Battle and came across the Redemption of St. Sulech. I was just wondering if having a 12 ROF is particularly useful. Is there a Marine out there who can get to BS 115 and then rolls a 3 for 12 hits?

With bonuses (which can stack up to 60), you can possibly go even higher than 120

Of course, that's situational.

Assume starting BS of 50 (30+2d10, rolling two 10's)

Four advances to BS: BS 70

Signature Wargear (master): +10

Master quality craftmanship: +10

The appropiate sight: +10

"Total" BS: 100

Now, Aim +10, and Full Auto +20 => 130 effective BS. Without counting the Mind Impulse Unit (if applicable) which gives +10, or the gizmo that allows a marine to target using data from another marine.

Argus Van Het said:

Except then you're over +60, which isn't allowed.

Plus the +10BS for the MIU is only for MIU-equipped gear (ie not man-portable weapons) and looks to be pretty clearly for vehicular weapons. This ain't Cyberpunk and there ain't no smartguns (and if there were... wouldn't every marine have an MIU link unit built in, because it's such a blatant no brainer?)

Siranui said:

you are correct on the first point but im not so sure about the MIU point. the Exceptional MIU says is grants a bonus for Ballistic Skill tests when interface with MIU systems. and arm weapon mounting says it can be "triggered" by MIU. I will agree that its not exactly clear cut. and as for why every marine doesnt have an MIU link, well exceptional MIU links don't exactly grow on trees. and if a marine wants to have MIU linked weapons he can only do so with pistols or a grenade launcher and it cuts the range 30%. From a game point of view I don't think thats that broken personally. The game I'm running at the moment my techie hasn't gotten round to asking for the bonus yet, but he loves MIU linking a shoulder mounted plasma pistol, just because its AWESOME. and I don't blame him

To me, it's rather abusive, peaking to utterly abusive if a player tries to buy it with Requisition!

I can almost see a case for allowing it on shoulder mounted weapons, but the reek of cheese is still kinda on the air, as those aren't something that is particularly common outside of Tau battlesuits. Maybe for the shoulder mounted pistols it's ok, but certainly not for other carried weapons. Heavy Bolters -for example- do not contain a MIU. Where do you plug it in?

It's more than enough that the +10BS can be used on vehicles and starship weapons, to my mind (as well as vehicles, as per the normal use). I'm not even sure how it could be justified in any logical way on a weapon that the user is holding and training on the target themselves. What command are you telling the weapon? 'Left a bit' doesn't make much sense when the marine is holding it.

Siranui said:

I've gotta second Siranui on this one. I'd say yes to shoulder weapons, but trying to gain a benefit from just firing a bolter seems a bit much. Everything I've seen on them says they're mostly for Dreadnoughts or Titans.

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_bionics#Mind_Impulse_Unit

That link says they can be used for shoulder mounts and are usually only seen in hand-held form with the Skitarii. If a Battle-Brother REALLY wanted to use it, I'd probably force him to have his weapon specially outfitted for it, meaning he'd either need to get it with Signature Wargear or spend extra Requisition to get a weapon properly modded.

We had this talk before, and anyway, if the limit is +60 that is irrelevant. The top would be 130 anyway.

As for a techmarine with that... I think he should look into the servo-harness. It includes a mechadendrite with a plasma cutter that acts like a plasma pistol.

And finally, I specifically said the bonus included the Signature Wargear (Master), so the MIU wouldn't be so far off. Oh, and I shudder to think how much attractive Siranui's interpretation of MIU makes Dreadnoughts... XD

Dreadnaughts are already plenty good enough, made by master craftsmen blahblah. Giving the most deadly PC in the party another +10 'to hit' is just pandering to powergaming to my mind, so I'd not hesitate to say 'no'.

Siranui said:

Yet the point is, they ARE phisically connected to the weapons, it is "a vehicle" (of sorts) and all that crap xD.

I was just teasing a little here, however. The final conclusion remains: any Space Marine can start with 50 in BS, pay 4 advances (to up 70) and then stack bonus up to +60, for a total of 130.

And certain chapters and the Ultramarines can start with a potential 55 in BS, for a top of 135.

Argus Van Het said:

Yeah; I totally agree. There's no *logical* reason to veto it for a Dread. It's just a case of me saying 'don't be a jerk, I already let you play a Dread dammit, now stop trying to be even more obscenely powered, compared to the other people who have to sit around a table with you, ya munchkin!'

Concerning the MIU. I do agree it would seem silly to physically adjust the aim of a held weapon using an MIU. But I'd always justified the +10 BS, by considering that an adapted weapon may use an MIU to provide feedback to the user, e.g. a direct optical feed from the barrel's perspective, or stats about heat levels, general status etc. Perhaps it might even just allow for better communication between a marine and his weapon's machine spirits.

I still wouldn't allow this lightly, but perhaps for mastercrafted weapons, those that are specially adapted, or more "techy" ones, like the conversion beamer I would be tempted.

Any opinions?

Still 'no' to me. This isn't cyberpunk, and there ain't no smartguns! No character in any of the novels that I've read has had a bolt-gun that works like that and it lacks any precedent in the game, to my knowledge.

If a character wants a camera in their gun and wants to spend some Requisition on it for that, then that's plenty useful enough already, without having it give +10 as well. Just think: You'd never need to stick your head around a corner, ever again!

Of course, it's your game, your rules. But I personally wouldn't allow players to get away with it!

I ruled that MIU-enabled exceptional or master crafted weapons could be taken (not common quality). My logic being that MIU makes a weapon require more maintenance and should be reserved for weapons which deserve such care in any case.