I'm aware that there have been previous attempts at giving these Chapters life, however I've never seen a full write up for any of them. They were always missing some aspect (Psychic Powers, demeanour, relic, or something) and being OCD that annoyed me. So I spent a while digging through all the previous write-ups done on this board and that famous PDF with the horribly broken Salamanders in it. I combined the aspects I liked, modified what I didn't and filled in the gaps in each Chapter. I don't think it's all perfect and I welcome any feedback so I can make the needed corrections.

If I wasn't short-sighted, I would've written down all the names of the original authors so I could give them credit here. But you know who you are so my thanks!

Iron Hands: docs.google.com/viewer

Raven Guard: docs.google.com/viewer

Salamanders: docs.google.com/viewer

White Scars: docs.google.com/viewer

Enjoy!

Great job compiling all of this!

What's missing :

- The Iron Hands' Advances Table felt a bit lackluster, and they had only 3 Psychic Powers, we may need to write some more.

- The Req cost for the Raven Guard's relic.

- The Solo Mode for White Scars does not seem totally right. I mean it really implies "breaking the rules": you begin with ignoring Suppressive Fire, then don't trigger Overwatch the next turn, all that before getting to the point where you can freely disengage from Melee? I'd not go that far.

I didn't see anything else bothering, but it's getting late (or early, it depends on what you'd call 5 A.M. ).

Great Job

Dont know if the iron hands, raven guard or salamnders really needed some more as that index astartes thing was decent. But I like you iron hands more than that one.

Thanks for the feedback. I've uploaded updated pdfs for the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and White Scars in the first post.

I'm still trying to think of some more Iron Hands psychic powers but am coming up with nothing. Any suggestions would be great.

Tunnelhckrat: I realise that there have been previous write ups, but none of them were complete, so rather than just putting up the missing info, I put everything into one document so players wouldn't have to bounce between two or more documents.

Ok Ive had time to look at the white scars a little more closely. Awsome psyker powers, esp tempest field, thats what I was hoping to find for a white scars power. Lightning Arc seems incredibly powerful, i purpose making it a full action but keeping its attack value. The range on Fleet of foot seemes a little far (considering the squad will normally all move up together). Lokking at the skill list, Is beserk charge supposed to have frenzy as a prerequisite or is that something you think should be a prerequisite? Either way is fine, just wanting a clarification. I also think they should have acrobatics on the list...maybe acrobatics +10....maybe. I really like the histories, unique and fitting for the flavor, esp death race. The chapter trappings are good, but i dont understand how the rolling plains talisman work. Also think Devestator and Dreadnaught should be restricted Specialties.

But Thats the rantings of someone who was too lazy to come up with his own set of rules. Take it as you will.

Really like it that way!

Devastator, OK, but I don't see why Dreadnaught should be forbidden to the White Scars. A Dreadnought is mobile (less than a flock of crazed bikers, but just as much as any foot-based unit, more or less), and is incredibly cool when you have the feel of a motorized horde, isn't it?

Thanks for the further feedback Tunnelhckrat. It took a bit of thinking but I think I agree with you on Acrobatics. I replaced the Climb Skill with the Acrobatics Skill. I also added the restrictions for the Devastator and the Dreadnaught because according to the fluff (and I'm assuming backed up in the Chapter's Army Lists) the White Scars see being interred in a Dreadnaught to be an eternal prison, which goes against their free-spirited nature.

Also the book lists Frenzy as a pre-req for Berzerk Charge, so who am I to argue?

Ok Ive now has a chance to review the raven guard. Even better than the white scars. Flocked is prolly the BEST chapter speciffic psyker power ive read, not as in damage but as in sheer coolness. The 1st primarchs curse doesnt seem to necisarilly have a drawback unless the character plays it out. Not sure if hammer blow ought to be on the skill list, (a raven guard wouldnt deliever a devestating blow and leave himself open unless he believed it could save his sqad at the cost of his life). Should dust of delievrance add renown for the whole sqaud or just any raven guard in the squad? Still a cool trapping. The choas incursion into ultramar is good, but im not sure if a chaos force has ever penetrated deep enough into the realm to seriously threaten it. (besides smurfs are totally uncool). That may be more of a personal hatred against the ultramarines though.

As usual, take these opiions with a grain of salt.

Parry isn't a skill, so it should be replaced with wall of steel for White Scars.

SomVone said:

By the Emperor, you're right. Don't know where I thought it was a skill, I was looking at a character sheet and everything.

Either way it's been fixed for the White Scars, and made some slight modifications to the Ravenguard too. Replaced Hammer Blow with a talent more suited (IMO) to the Raven Guard: Eye of Vengence.

Keep the feedback coming!

On a (sort of) related note, I've begun coming up with versions of the Loyalist Astartes from the Dornian Heresy. It's an awesome read and I'm going to have some fun with them, especially the Thousand Sons...

I've not read it in detail, but looked good at first skim just before I had to rush out. One minor thing that I noted was one of the Chapter's trappings gives +3 on all checks to prevent cohesion loss (which would mean both command and willpower), which makes it a bit out of balance, as other Chapters only get trappings which give them +3 on Command checks to prevent loss of cohesion.

Ive had a chance to look at Iron Hands, So far this is the one I like the least and Its mainly for one reason:

"An Iron Hands player who plays a Techmarine is going to get jipped"

This is a difficult one because of the chapter flavor. If the character isnt a techie then the skill list is great, but the techmarine player has many duplicate talents and skills. Jaded is totally useless for a space marine since they do not have to test for insanity/fear/corruption except by fear causing creatures. It does however fit the Iron Hands persona. The alteration of +5 Str and 3 implants is way better than the other Write ups d5 implants. Some talents I would recommend are:

Iron Jaw

Autosanguine

Scourge of Heretics

Disturbing Voice

Not sure if all these fit, but trying to get away from techmarine duplicated talent isnt easy for this chapter; I think most of these are duplicated in other ranks elsewhere anyway so Im not really sure what you could do to affect this. Nice relic. The only psyker power I could think of would be some kind of gun jamming action, but if this affects ALL guns (PC's included) or just one I cant decide on. Clan markings are cool.

I wouldnt of even attempted to make rules for them though so kudos to you.

For the Iron Hands, I'd say maybe add some cool heavy fire / melee fighting talents. To close in on their brutal nature and undistinctive fighting habits?

As regards Iron Hands Techs getting a short straw, this is kinda the way in DW with 'double specialising': You don't get to stack the bonuses too much, and there are diminishing returns. Basically; it's a bit of a paradigm shift. We're all used to games where you just stack the two obvious bits of blag together for an optimised character, and it doesn't work that way in DW. For example; a Ultramarine Tac is a weak choice, because Leadership skills + Leadership skills != 2x Leadership skills. Likewise, a BA AM is an obvious choice, but a BA Dev is arguably a better idea.

Comments. All are meant to be constructive, and how I'd tweak things. I'm not going to heap praise upon the bits that are good, so just assume that if I haven't commented; I like it!

...Errr...except for the Psyker stuff, which I don't consider myself enough of an expert on to have any valid input.

Raven Guard

Any ideas for a Primarch's Curse?

Option of taking Corvus armour as a trapping, instead of rolling on normal armour table, perhaps?

Dust of deliverance is way OP. An extra point of renown for every objective? So double renown, then? An extra point of renown *per mission* is about what a trapping should be doing. This is horrifically good.

A trapping that gives +3 command is out of line with other trappings that only give situational bonuses to the skill: ie Ultramarines can have +3 command to 'save' vs Cohesion loss. It needs to be situational.

+2 to Any pilot test is a bit too good, too. +3 on Pilot: Personal is plenty sweet enough.

Solo Mode rank 7: This is a bit mean. It infers that no marine can quietly murder someone until they are an awesome Raven Guard. I'd ditch it, and replace it with a variant of the Space Wolf solo mode and allow a once-per-session declaration of an '01' concealment or silent move check.

I'm not crazy about the skill list. It's 16 skills long, including 6 talents; 5 of which are awesome combat talents. It looks more like a 'dream list' that someone put together of 'stuff I want', rather than a thematically fitting list of sensible stuff. ie: Thunder Charge, Swift Attack, Paranoid, Eye of Vengeance are just a list of brilliant talents, only one of which is very Raven Guard. I'm not sure about the Command stuff on there. Are Raven Guard known for great inspiring leadership? Scrutiny? Do they hang around people who lie to them a lot?

What I'd put on their list:

Concealment +0, +10, +20 400xp each

Silent Move +0, +10, +20 400xp each

Tactics (Recon and Stealth) +0, +10, +20 200xp each

[Those all seem to be no-brainers, and the core of the RG ethos]

Paranoid 500xp

Hip shooting 500xp

Pilot (personal) +10 300xp

Hard Target 500xp

[These stress mobility and the RG attitude further]

And maybe: Demolitions 300xp.... it fits the whole sabotage thing, as well as the recruits being miners. Heck: Maybe add in talented (demolitions) instead for 400xp.

That's still an attractive and thematic list without having the 'woohoo Swift Attack at first rank for my non-Assault Marine, and Thunder Charge too!!!1111win!!!!!' factor.

Comments?

Agreed.

I'd just go for giving them Talented(Silent Move) and Talented(Concealment). They are the Ninja Marines after all.

About the Iron Hands, I concur, but my suggestion is to make it possible to be a Tech Iron Hand who does not end up considering his chapter as nearly useless gameplay speaking (even though MOAR implants are kewl, they just don't make up for having a 1337 skills list...).

About Corvus Armor, I don't know. It sounds very true fluffwise of course, but it's insanely powerful (+10 Agi, better auto senses, only 1 less armor on the torso...And 2 Histories). So I'd say either make it be a "salvaged" Corvus armor (or, say, only the helmet?) or just think about the deed that lets you chose your armor.

I was thinking helmet only at first read. Although... having now settled into the RoB changes, I'm not seeing Corvus as the problem that everyone thought it to be. But that's probably worth a separate thread.

I'm all for limiting the power of 'double specialising' a bit, but there may be a little *too* much tech-marine duplication there.

Thank you all for the replies. I re-vamped the Iron Hands skills and talents and would appreciate some more feedback. I suspect I'll get to the Raven Guard tonight as it seems I have the most work to do on them.

On the subject of Iron Hands, anyone have an idea for more Librarian Powers?

And now I've updated the Raven Guard. I think the only sections that went untouched were the Psychic Powers and Squad Modes Stances.

Feedback appreciated!

Salamander's turn!

Stats: Toughness and Fellowship make perfect sense. There's been lots of suggestions towards giving them -5Agi and something else as well (+2W?), but I'm not sure about where the -5Agi came from canon-wise. Thoughts?

Charm and perform: Yup! Why not take Perform to +20? It's not really a game-breaker.

Survival.... Hmm... not sure on this one. I'd probably take it out, as many Chapters from harsher environments (eg BAs) don't get it. I'm not sure about tech use, either. Salamanders are smiths and metalworkers, but are they that much more au fait with machine spirits than others?

Good Rep, but no Peer talent, which is the pre-req, I believe. Add Peer (any) for 400xp?

I'd consider tossing them Resistance (Heat) for free, or maybe 100xp.

Duty unto Death and Cleanse and Purify are spot-on, though maybe the cost of Cleanse and Purify should be less, as it's not worth buying here for Tac and Dev marines. 300xp? 200xp to little?

Trade (armourer)... perhaps Trade (metalworker) or (smith) instead? It's more representative. I'd also consider lowering the cost, as it's essentially a characterful skill, rather than being a useful one.

Stalwart Defence? It would seem to be a perfect fit for Salamanders.

Primarch's Curse: Level 2 one should have a consequence for failure (like -1 Cohesion)

Chapter Attack Mode: This is a bit niche/useless, to be honest.

Solo mode is very good. Not over-good, but good enough, I think.

Defence mode is a bit complex in regards to ranges and stuff. I'd perhaps make it more akin to the DA solo mode?

Trappings:

These seem a bit too good.

There's one that once again gives +3 against *all* cohesion loss, which is more powerful than the limited options given in the base Chapters.

+2 Toughness BONUS in melee!? Wow. Just broken-wow. That's... amazing. Maybe a trapping that gives +1 Wound would be more balanced. Still darned good, but more balanced. How about one that's +1 TB against flame weapon and fire damage (NOT plasma and melta)?

Re-roll overheats... might be good, might not! Seems pretty good, though, as it turns a miss into a hit in all likelyhood. How about: If you overheat, roll a d5. If you get a '5' you don't overheat. Or: Re-roll ONE overheat per session.

Relic: Not looked at this, but given the Thunderhammers are a bit broken at the moment, 'balancing' it against that would be a bad move!

Thank Siranui! Very helpful.

To answer some of your questions:

Somewhere in the Space Marines Codex it says that the Salamanders are "slightly slower" than their Space Marine brothers. In canon terms I'd call that a -2 penalty, but since they're still much faster than the normal humans, I didn't think a penalty was needed. Also in game terms, no other Chapter has penalties, why should they?

I gave them survival because they use it on a constant basis keeping their populace safe from the sandstorms of Nocturne, compared to other Chapters who use harsh elements only as a form of training and self-testing, the Salamanders live in it.

Regarding the Thunder Hammer... yeah it's probably adding more broken onto broken, but the idea just seems so cool to be to replace it with something else.

Fixed the Trappings. I had meant +2 to the T Characteristic, not the bonus. Others I can agree with you on.

Thanks for all the input, the updated version will be uploaded now.

Well anyway the Thunder Hammer needs to be fixed so just keep that Relic a boosted TH and every GM has to mind his own house ruling business

If you give a penalty, you'll just have to balance it. Sad thing is, it's always harder to balance a penalty than just stick with the same framework. And a move penalty can have so much outcomes it's hard to know if it is that much of a penalty anyway...For an Assault, it always sucks not to be the mobile sh*t, but for a Dev it doesn't matter much. Of course, if you have a mission that requires your team to move a lot, then such a penalty can be a problem even for a Dev (slowing the team down).

So i'd be in favour of not taking that into account, too much problems for what it's worth.

This is only very quick, as I've not done with a fully reading and it is only my opinion but I'd be tempted to stat the Salamanders somewhat differently. I will justify these ideas and of course feel free to ignore them as they won't work for everyone and until we have an official Salamanders Chapter outline (tick tock etc) then we'll have to make them as we all see fit. I'd have it as +10 S, +5 T, -5 Ag. Yes, +10 S is huge, but the Imperial Fist's have a +10 to their Willpower and whilst my Salamanders get a +5 T too they do suffer a -5 Ag giving them a reason to be more survivable. Now for my reasoning, haha.

Vulkan is described as being the strongest among the Primarch's from the piece of text in Age of Darkness, the Horus Hersesy novel it seems to suggest that the only competition to him being the strongest was Ferrus Manus "Vulkan was enraged, battering tanks aside like children's toys. He was not the most gifted swordsman, nor was he a master strategist or a psyker of any note, but his strength and fortitude ...in that, the Eighteenth Primarch was unrivalled".

Just before this Vulkan had flipped a demolisher tank with his bare hands. Okay, so he's a Primarch he's allowed to be a little bit strong, but it does seem to be a genetic inheritance that his sons tend to get through the geneseed. Ba'ken the heavy weapons user and later Sergeant of one of the squads in Kyme's Tome of Fire trilogy is described as being huge and immensely strong, as is Praetor the First Company Sergeant. Chapter Master Tu'shan is said to be strong even for a Space Marine (regrettably, for this I can only offer the Lexicanum article on Tu'shan as their citations on sources are somewhat lacking). It is mostly the description of Vulkan and the mentions of other Marines strength and endurance that prompts me to suggest this. I'd personally be wary about giving +5 fellowship, purely because of how the Salamanders look. Mortals couldn't related to a Marine in a helmet, and as soon as that helm is removed they look like daemons with coal skin and red glowing eyes.

I do like the Psychic powers section, by and large they work well; and they were always the hardest part that I found. This isn't meant as a criticism at all, your stat line for Salamanders very well represents your Salamanders and we all have our own versions. I'm just sharing mine here as part of a wider consideration, I hope that I haven't stepped on any toes

Stats should still total a +10 bonus, even if there's a penalty. +10 Str is going a bit too far, especially as this is not supposed to be a Salamander forte. Vulcan might have been strong, but his sons are far more famed for their fortitude and kindness than strength. There are examples of particularly strong marines in most Chapter novels, but I really think that it's not the Salamander's 'thing'.

Although I'm not saying that I strictly agree with a penalty, either, as it lacks president. Give the Salamanders one, and then the Iron Hands will be wanting -5 Fel, so it's probably best to avoid.

Fellowship makes sense because the Salamanders are perhaps the most human and compassionate of the Astartes. They care, and that's reflected in the stats.

Given the Salamander penchant for making stuff and the lack of rules for it, there could be scope there for giving the Salamander access to another (low value, or limited to being 'typical' Salamander wargear) wargear talent, reflecting something that was self-made. Or not, because that would be quite dangerous ground balance-wise, I feel. It depends how long the skill list is looking by now. If it's less than 12 long, then I'd consider adding it. Otherwise: They've got enough stuff already!

As for the +2T trapping, it's either fantastically cool and worth a Toughness advance (if you have a stat ending in '3', '4', '8' or '9'), or worthless if you don't. So I'm still a bit leery of it, as it would be a no brainer for some, and no-brainer choices in character creation cease to be a 'choice'. Giving it +1 Wound still reflects the same thing (The salamander being tough), but not is such a quite powerful manner.

I did list other examples, other than Vulkan himself such as their Chapter Master Tu'shan, Praetor and Ba'ken. There are strong marines in every Chapter but they don't seem to be as numerous, it is quite a contrast to their more gentle nature. Even so, yes Salamanders are the most human and compassionate but it is in spite of their condition. Captain Ka'dai says that they are so compassionate because of how they look, because they understand that they appear as monsters and must try harder.

All I'm saying is that giving them a fellowship boost in the stats actually defeats this characteristic in terms of roleplaying a Space Marine from the Salamanders. There is no way a mortal wouldn't be bricking himself when not used to how a Salamander appears without a helm, and human traits and compassion of a Salamander would do little to endear him to his more pragmatic squad mates in a mission. In theory it's a nice idea, but I personally don't think it accurately reflects how they would be seen by other Astartes or by the mortals they protect. The Salamanders are noble because of the ideals they extol despite themselves, they are in no way helped by how they look, in some situations granted they are much gentler with mortals that I will agree.

I'm not knocking the Salamanders I'm a huge fan, if we had official rules I'd be a lot quicker to actually bother playing Deathwatch for more than a handful of missions. If it is only a +10 total to both skills that is needed then of course a lowering of the S trait to +5 is fine, as is the using of the fellowship trait to reflect how you want. I think a case can be made either way. The - to agility only comes from the previous editions of the codex where because of the Salamanders homeworld being so high gravity their reflexes were apparently marginally slower than their fellow Astartes. I never really liked this bit of story, but unless its been totally retconned it's there muddying the waters. I do like the idea of giving them an additional wound to emphasise that they are tougher than most, I think that works well.