I have taken a long break from WFRP since my previous campaign ended last summer and I have finally come back after playing a bit of D&D. This time around I let the players choose their careers. So one of the players is an agent and the other is an Apprentice Grey Wizard. In the adventure I ran I had the party investigate a Khornate cult in a farmer's corn field. I had the town watch pay them 20 brass pennies each for helping save one of the mayor's servants from the cultists.

The players think that I am not giving them enough money and think I should give them lots of shillings or gold crowns. I have explained to them that not many people in the old world are that rich. So they have taken matters into their own hands and have decided to cast an illusion spell that would turn all of the pennies I have them into gold crowns using one of the grey wizard's actions. They know the spell will wear off so they plan to go to a bank and ask for change for their fake gold crowns in shillings. The wizard is also planning on using the doppleganger spell to turn into a merchant so no one would know it was him when the illusion spell wears off.

After that they plan to skip town and spend their new fortune. I have no idea how to stop this. I have thought about using witch hunters with magical sight to investigate and possibly have the Grey College look into the situation. Does anyone on the forums have any idea on how to stop the characters from becoming rich too quickly? Should I let them get away with it?

The biggest problem with economy in RPGs is that the PCs usually don't have many expenses. I have set up living expenses to give them advantages and in the next campaign they can aquire property where they need money for upkeep and salary. Also requiring them to repair their equipment once in a while is a good idea. Generally they could pay 10% of the equipment cost every week/month or whatever to keep their equipment in good condition. Give them misfortune dice if they don't.

But making a working economy can be hard, because you need something that works without requiring too much book keeping.

The Grey Wizard spells can really pose a problem if the players wish to make money quick. That said I could imagine any bank worth anything would have somekind of magical defenses against spells and magic (can't even remember if there are banks like we have in the "real world" in the Old World or how the money system works). If we're talking about smaller sums of money, then they might pull it off buying something off a merchant with the crowns.

What I would do is let them get away with it once or twice and then make the Grey College VERY interested in what's going on. It is explicitly said in the Grey College rules that the grey magic can NEVER be used for personal gain. Sending a grey wizard assassin after them can be very scary as you never know how the killer will look like this time...

A good question is that if after Grey College brainwashing the wizard craves for money and wealth immediately (he's an acolyte, right?), then he must be tainted by chaos. If the Grey College doesn't want to handle the issue themselves witch hunters might be interested.

The real issue here is that the players are clearly wanting a different kind of game than what you have in mind. What are their plans on "spending their fortune"? What kind of adventures are those? What are the motivations and values the characters have? They're stealing, is that ok for them?

One options is to let them get away with it and have good time playing it. Then the next scenario takes place X years later, after they have spent their fortune to the last coin. They're fat (minuses to physical characteristics) and used to easy living. Creating a scenario when these two get back in adventuring can be a hilarious one.

With Grey power comes Grey responsibility.

I'd let them.

As said in various supplements for 3E, say "yes" to your players

Only, don't let that be the end of it. Realise they're going for the clandestine, criminal way. Make sure their party-sheet gets changed for one

Simply:

- Make them have expenses on their gear. If they buy property, have upkeep & taxes

- Have one of them contract a contageous disease. Tie in a nice little Nurgle-themed adventure & need for large donations while the player/players struggle to survive/get a cure

- If they spend their money, it will attract some attention --> Have con-artists show up, pickpockets, kidnapping, blackmailing attempts. If you've got plenty of money and you're flashing it around, you'll have to suffer the consequences. If you're not flashing it around, it severely limits what you can do with it.

And it might not even ever get to that. Using magical defenses on things like a bank, seems to me like cheating your players. Why would a bank put that much money into something like that. That sounds like a GM who simply says: No, you can't, NAH!

- When they turn in their fake gold at the local bank, they themselves might get robbed when returning, or hussled by the banks.
Used to be that when golddiggers went to cash in on their findings, they got swindled 3 times (counterfeit weights to weigh their gold, sleight-of-hand to reduce the amount the clerk actually weighs, and the fact that they're not current to the actual exchange-rate) Nothing that says a local bank might not try to cheat an out of town merchant

- Also, keep in mind that a local bank would not have THAT much money. A lot of what they used was the forefather of the check. So somebody wrote a note & signed it with a gob of wax attached. It said that so&so has deposited 100gold at the office of X. Effectively, it was a trust between 2 banks. So you can only cash it in at another bank. Guess who's gonna make sure (by pigeon carrier) that nobody accepts your "check" when the gold you turned in, turns to copper/brass/slices of carrot? 5 pigeons take care of all close-by banks. And they'll be on the lookout for anybody who walks in with that false check, along with the local guard. Their whole business relies on somebody NOT abusing their system, so they definitely have an interest in catching these con-artists.

But I agree with Mordjinn's remarks

- The players seem to have a different game in mind, might want to check that out first.
- Grey College might get wind of it, and the lore explicitly speaks of not using the grey wind for personal gain.
- I like the idea of fat characters having to get back into shape, but this is Warhammer, I expect Slaanesh would have come knocking on the door in the meantime as well. Might want to have them make a few checks about that as well.

(1) The College System is essentially a "professional guild on steroids" when it comes to setting and maintaining ethical standards for its members. The Grey Order is also known for its "secret service" aspect and I would also say should invoke "never kid a kidder" logic (don't try to pass on/hide what you're doing from your Grey Order overlords). They will figure out pretty quickly that Grey Order Wizard A is in towns 1, 2, 3 where illusions were used to pass off coinage. The use of illusions to counterfeit coins will stir and feed into anti-wizard sentiment and provoke a serious response. They set up a few "dummy operators" to fall for the scam with apprentices using magical sight to watch for funny money and "bam", "Congratulations in true wahammer style you have just been forcibly recruited into engaging in whatever suicidal missions the Grey Order needs doing, unless you want to spend the next 123 years in Munsden Keep (the debtor's prison near Altdorf)."

(2) This kind of behaviour, narratively, fits only with an Order member who is well on way to "corruption". What do they do with their money (as asked already), what motivates them? Is it at all in the line of one of the 4 Ruinous Powers? I take the view that "being bad isn't the same as being tainted" but "being bad does make you look like a candidate". So, what Ruinous Power seeing this behaviour would have their attention attracted and decide to start tempting/corrupting the subject.

(3) Taking that "what motivates them" further turn it all on its head and say, "Okay, we're not playing that out town by town (borrrrrring), where do you see this going, is it 2 years later (not that's one sesson, you didn't get any advances), you're fabulously wealthy but have used this trick all over the Empire except (wherever you want to focus now). What are you doing? The game is now about how you take all your ill gotten loot and become a Border Princeling, finance an expedition to Lustria or what? By the way, the spread of this trick has lead to the widespread use of College Wizards as transaction auditors - any individual transaction involving more than 5 Gold Crowns has a wizard use magical sight to verify lack of deception etc. (don't have rules to hand not sure if there are Grey Order tricks to hide from magical sight) so that this point you have to spend so much time on such small value frauds the trick is no use to you given how wealthy you are.

Or they say, "oh no, I wouldn't have pushed it that far, I just want to live comfortably" - oh, so can we just handwave that you're Gold Tier, stay in the best inns, drink best wines (use 3rd edition published rates, that's pricey) and move on from there.

(4) Simple coherent campaign logic, if a cantrip could break the economic system of the Empire it would have already. So this shouldn't work. It does work? Hmmm, see #2 again, really your cantrip is only working because a Ruinous Power wants to break the Empire's economy (sounds like a Tzeentch plot to me, convulated, using magic). Back to Corruption and taint, say every time you use the cantrip it risks corruption check.... Of course, Tzeentch is sneaky, you've already worked up a back log of a dozen checks - the Taint is building up....

Overall, if it was me, I would be clear, that I'm not here as GM to indulge some teenage power trip fantasy (that's another game), it's a gritty perilous world and these are the stories of those in it - yes, they can have fabulous success (that part of the story is half a chapter), the rest of the book is about "what happens next". Hmmm, looks like the Elector Count just framed you for treason and confiscated all yoru property because you were such a tempting target.

To be fair, there is a natural tendency in players to push and break games without "meaning to" simply with the "well, it looks like I could do this, so why wouldn't I" if players are not mature enough to use a GM logic of "well, if that happens, what does it do to the game overall". A certain style of play leaves all that worry to GM. I'm lucky enough that I have players where if one saw this potential he would ask, "Rob, why don't I just routinely forge coins whenever I'm passing through town or someplace I can disguise myself etc.?" And when I said, "Because the College would find out within a few months and you would disappear one night without a trace", the player would nod and say, "Yeah, makes sense".

1. A bank? You have banks in your campaign? What is this? The wild west? Also, if you have a bank, it's likely going to be in a CHURCH OF HANDRED only in a major city(nuln), and they're going to be on the look out for this kind of activity. (AUTO FAIL)

2. Hand out 3 corruption points to the wizard..no resistance check. He has corrupted his order and that deserves immediate reprisal. The colleges have adapted their magic to somewhat safely operate within the confines of CHAOS. When that magic is used in corrupted ways, TZEENTCH is happy to give them their corruption points.

3. Yes, 20 brass is too little. I would take a look at what the typical wage is of a mercenary (in the equipment section) and go with that. Then, let them buy stuff. Put the option out there for them to buy superior items. If that's what they want to do, let them buy stuff. At the end of my house rulebook, I have a section on expanded superior item lists: dl.dropbox.com/u/167876/WFRP3%20Hafner%20house%20rulebook%20v3.1.pdf

..

monkeylite said:

Emirikol: There have been "banks" since ancient Persia, that's roughly 3000years before whatever time Warhammer could be happening in

Eye of the Beholder allows for alteration of items in basic ways. You can't take a pile of dung and have it transform into gold coins. The dung might look like pudding...but it's still going to taste like poo. In the description you see that you can make silver look like, taste like and be as heavy as gold which tells me as a GM that you can't also change it's physical shear strength That would be more in the wheel house of the Gold Order to modify physical properties. Something most players wouldn't consider when building their big con artist game to counterfeit gold....but hang in a bit longer here...

Right off the bat the action has a smallish chance to not stick the landing...but rather to rib-cage it and get straight 0's for the attempt. One mean little chaos star and those coins will be flat out stamped with the mark of Ulgu which will eventually gives you recourse to bring some sort of bad kharma down on the PC's. 'The Orders Police Themselves" is the mantra I grind into anyone I play with. Let them run rampant for a while, and then drop the hammer in an earth shattering "the game mechanics literally can not save you here" way. Death or capture by Witch Hunters could be a nicer way out than to be dragged into the darkest depths of the Grey Order's HQ and be subjected to whatever they do to wayward wizards...*shudders*...Servitorization in Warhammer 40k would probably be preferable.

Additionally in order for the spell to succeed you have to roll an opposed check. The way it is worded gives ample room for interpretation (Highest Opposed Observation). At first pass it seems like it says that you have to oppose a group or individual at the initial casting. This could mean that, sure you duped that merchant taking your coin. But you could just as easily have a customer or townie wander through the door and be like...gosh Gus that sure is a screamin' bargain for that jewel encrusted rapier...2 bits! sheesh! <Enter...roleplay your way out of that one boy-os and the best you can hope for is being chased out of the bank/shop whilst being pelted with your shoddy counterfeits>

Another way to read the action is that every...single...person that looks at those coins gets a chance to just flat out not buy the illusion. And eventually they'll cross the wrong people, and I don't mean the bright upstanding legal folk of the Empire. I am talking about dirty grimey, lung ventilating criminals who take gold more seriously than a banker...<I'd let the PC's think they are getting away with the greatest confidence game in the land...and then send some pie-pitting hard nosed so-n-so's after them>...<or have another Grey order wizard show up to say in a stern manner: "Handle your s---t Filonius">

The way I think it was intended is that each time the players desire to purchase something they have to cast that spell again and are subject to the potential of the first situation above...my my Helmut it is so uncharacteristic of you to issue promissory notes of 10 crowns on nothing but brass! This scenario also has the added risk of making the players cast that spell over and over and...uh oh mutation!

Of course the game mechanics may run in their favor......say they are unable to fail a roll and you can't figure out a way to un-man their obvious attempt to rebel against the nature of Warhammer being gritty, and they proceed to wench and spend their way through the Empire....

Have a merchant bite the coins to make sure they are gold...oh ho wait? This don't dent like gold (told you to hang in there a little while longer). Gold has a low shear strength which causes it to deform when bitten...something every merchant would do when presented with something as obviously valuable as a gold crown. <"What are you trying to pull here stranger!?" (should be synonomous with "we dont take kindly to folks that are odd round here").>

The spell only lasts until the end of an encounter so you have ample time-frame shenanigans you can pull with your players. Their addition of the use of the Doppleganger spell only makes the chance for getting ***** slapped by chaos manifestations or having illusions disbelieved by targets even higher which will undoubtedly draw someone's attention.

Even if allll the chances for them to fail above pass you buy without a hitch...they will become rich which will draw the attention of other rich people (who simply HAVE to have their noses in every other rich person's business especially if that person is new on the rich people scene), and rich people are targeted by nasty people who would like to bleed them of their riches by any means necesary. Also...gossip spreads faster than truth in the Empire especially when there is cash behind it to speed it on its way. At some point the Grey Order is going to ask that loaded question of "Do we need to talk?"

Emirikol said:

The Old World has quite extensive and advanced banking, postal and "public transport" systems. I think there are some descriptions of it in TTT actually

Of course there are banks and moneychangers, but if you don't want to have this kind of problem, don't put it out there as a tempting aspect. Considering there is a specific god of trade and commerce and the long history of wizards ripping off banks with fake/pretend money, you can really save yourself a big headache. Also, until there's a "banker" career, I consider banks to be incredibly rare (IMC

The same thing is true for blacksmiths having all kinds of money to buy up used equipment..or nobles buying up anything the PCs dump on their front lawn. "Oh, you've got a whole bunch of rusty katana's for sale eh? Pretty exotic and useless to me, but I guess I've got all this extra money laying around (in the bank , so I'll give you all kinds of cash and let you haggle me into the stratosphere."

Without the D&D bank/magic-shop-on-every-corner aspect rife in WFRP, you can have a more sensible game and less "Greyhawking of the Bodies" every encounter.

If you make this clear early in your campaign, you'll be better off. This is a good plug to help yourself as a GM by contributing to the "In My Warhammer..." thread: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

On a related note to the note above: I write these things down on my Obsidian Portal campaign page. This makes for another good addendum

jh

I agree that it's generally not good for the game in the long run to stop players from doing things they want to do (if they have a good plan and do it well), but it's fine to let them deal with the consequences.

In addition to the ones mentioned here, you could also have a very upset banker post an advert for 'special operatives' - to be very well paid. When the PCs show up for the job, the banker explains that he's been the victim of a con job, and is willing to spend anything to get revenge and protect his reputation as someone not to be crossed. The PCs now potentially have the power to con him again, and it really can become a criminal campaign. They might also get scared though: seeing how determined this guy is. Will they frame someone else? Once they embark upon a life of crime, it can be hard to stop!

Alternatively, they could find out just what a decent guy this banker was that they've ripped off. In fact, they've bankrupted the guy who was about to use his wealth to rescue the local Shallyan orphanage from closure. All those poor, inocent children are now going to starve to death, and all because someone stole a few gold crowns...

Or perhaps they've bankrupted the banker that was going to finance a public project or military expedition that is vital. The 'nasty' banker (that they haven't yet stolen from), the one who is funding the bad guys in your campaign, etc. now has no opposition. The town council will now have to turn to him for loans instead of the 'good' banker, and he's going to use that influence to do x, y and z which is going to be bad for the town, bad for the PCs, bad for teh fight agains chaos, etc...