Our devestator with a suspensor fires full auto with his heavy bolter as a half action, then he does a called shot/full auto as the other half, since standard attack and called shot are different action that sounds acceptable except they are both half actions. I suppose the real question is can you fire full auto with called shot?

By RAW the player cannot do that.

The writing of Deathwatch Suspensor says that the player may fire on full or semi automatic as a Half action.

However, Called Shot is a full action, and it is not reduced by the Suspensor at least by rules as written.

As to your other question, yes, you can use Called Shot to direct a weapon being fired on full auto.

At Last Forgot said

For any Space Marine wearing any sort of Astartes Power Armour with Auto Senses, it's a Half Action. See page 161 of the core book.

In addition a player may not make more than a single attack action in a turn. You cannot use a half action single shot followed by another half action single shot. Or any other half action attack followed by another half action attack. But you may take a half action single shot then make a half move (as a half action).

The multiple attacks (full) action is its own action allowing a player to make multiple attacks as part of the multiple attacks action.

As for the calling a shot with a full auto weapon, yes it is possible. But ONLY the first shot will hit the intended target if the attack succeeds. The remaining shots will deviate as per the multiple hits table on page 239 of the main rulebook.

So even though standard attack and called shot are 2 different actions you still cant do both in a turn? Does that mean you cant stand up as a half and half move either?

as i understand the rules, shooting on full auto is a full action and the heavy bolter can only fire on full auto. that being said, the shooter could not take any other actions on the round they shoot.

If he takes a suspensor then full auto is a half action.

Tunnelhckrat said:

Now that you mention it (and I've re-read called shot again) I believe you are correct. As written a called-shot is a full action attack and therefore is only a single melee attack or ranged shot. Which would mean you cannot fire full auto with a called shot.

You can stand and half-move. The only limitations on actions I can recollect atm are only 1 attack action a turn and only 1 psychic power a turn.

I don't doubt its true, but where does it say you can only make one attack or one psy power attack?

xandarian said:

The book's description of actions (236) says you can't perform the same action twice in the same turn- you can't jump twice, shoot twice, etc. I can't find a reference in the book, but Ross Watson has said that unless otherwise noted (like with a Force Sword) a psychic power counts as a standard attack. So no shooting and using a psy power, or activating a force sword 3 times in a single turn.

@OP: Nothing I know of in the book prevents you from doing aimed or called shots with a full auto weapon (though I seem to recall this was the case in DH), however as a GM I'd apply the autofire hit location table to the second and subsequent hits (as herichimo indicates).

Now, I don't have my rule book in front of me, but I was under the impression that called shot is an action type, not a modifier one applies to their attack. Would this not mean that called shot cannot be stacked with full auto?

KommissarK said:

Called shot is subtype: "Attack, Concentration, Melee or Ranged".

As stated in the rulebook, a character cannot take the same action twice. But it does not continue to state that he cannot take the same "subtype" (or attack actions?) twice, which confuses me. I was pretty sure that I saw that in one of the rulebooks (or erratas?)

But then again, that would also stop a perfon from doing a Feint (half action, subtype "attack, melee") and then a Standard Attack (half action, subtype "attack, melee or ranged") in the same round?! (or to ready and reload a weapon, again 2 of the same subtypes..)

Well, you got me on the specific wording. Although the spirit of my comment still holds true, you can't full-auto twice in the same turn. And you can't fire a single weapon more than once in a turn either.

Again though, A called shot is a full action attack. You may use it with either a melee or a ranged attack. The entry specifically states you declare a target location and make a single hard WS or BS test. It does not say you may combine the action with another action. Which indicates you may make only a standard attack, which is one melee or ranged attack. semi-auto and full-auto are not standard attacks and therefore may not be used with called shot, in very much the same way an assault marine would not be able to use multiple attacks with a called shot.

There are no talents that allow called shot to be mixed with semi/full-auto. There are only 2 talents effecting called shot, deadeye and sharpshooter, and they only decrease the penalty for the action.

@Maelflux

I wasn't saying that Called Shot was a subtype, but rather that Called Shot is a separate action. I probably should not have used the word "type" in my original statement, but I meant it as a "type of action", just as a Standard Attack, a Full Auto Burst, a Half Move, a Full move, or a Reload Weapon are a "type of action."

There is insufficient proof that actions with the same subtype cannot be performed in the same turn (some people seem to believe it, and the rules are ambiguous on the topic. In my games I don't care). It is however, quite clear that the same action cannot be performed twice in the same turn (so two Standard Attack actions a turn are not allowed). Also, in the errata (for Dark Heresy at least), it is stated that Focus Power is equivelant to a Standard Attack for restricting actions.

What I was trying to say earlier, is that there is no such thing as a Called Shot with Full Auto. It would be like saying I do an All Out Attack with Feint at the same time.

So @OP, its just not possible, on multiple levels, to do what is suggested (unless you the GM want to allow this). First, no, you can't use suspensors to get 2 half action full auto shots off. And since the heavy bolter lacks a single shot mode, it cannot make called shots. And you can't fire full auto as a called shot.

Now, what is unclear, is the notion of if it is subtype that limits the action (I remember looking once, nothing in the book states that actions are limited by subtype ). So it may be allowable in RAW to have a full auto heavy weapon with a single shot mode to be able to fire full auto (as half action with suspensors), and then a standard attack.

More frightening though, is the possibility of a Librarian with a heavy bolter and suspensors. He could potentially (if the GM does not limit actions by subtype) fire full auto with a heavy bolter, and then focus power for a smite (since focus power is a standard attack, and not a full auto action).

This is however, cheesing the system, and warrants a slap to the face of any player who honestly thinks the GM is forced to allow such stupidity.

Why not let the marine divide the number of rounds fired between 2 half action full auto bursts. Any gunner with skill can fire short bursts with autofire and the guns are up to the task. As it is written in the rules then autofire with a HB is always 10 rounds, but why would a SM fire 10 rounds if 4 would do the trick?

E.g.: A devastator marine is covering the killteam with a Heavy Bolter w suspensor field. 2 Genestealers move in from the side. If we follow the rules, then the devastator can fire a half-action 10 round fullauto burst at one of the two xenos. My suggestion is that he could fire 2 halfaction bursts totaling up to 10 rounds with a penalty to the second burst due to shifting the aim. A 90 degree shift horizontaly is the maximum allowed and 40 degress vertically.

Comments and flames are welcome

You can already split fire between targets that are closely clustered, as per the full auto rules.

@ Malac.. Because there are already rules for firing a weapon with less than full rate of fire, and thats semi-auto burst. as Siranui said there are also rules for walking fire from full auto over multiple targets. And last, as been said by many people already you cannot use the same action twice (even if you were "splitting a full auto shot" which isn't allowed in the ruleset, you commit to full auto or you don't).

The Heavy bolter isn't designed for sniping, it was designed for suppresion and volume fire. Its a machine gun not a precision rifle.

@herichimo Where does it say you can only fire a single weapon once a round? As this would disrupt the use of certain squad abilities that give extra attacks.

You mean the special "game-changing" squad mode abilities that let you do things normally not allowed to do with the normal rules?

Both common sense and the limitations of using the same action twice in a single combat round quite clearly indicate a PC is not normally allowed to fire a single weapon twice in a round. Maximum rate of fire generally means the highest rate of fire a weapon can generate in a certain amount of time. Using squad mode abilities (which allow players to break the rules) does allow it to a certain degree. The only 2 that could possibly allow this rule-breaking ability are fire for effect and sustained suppression. Although niether overide the limitation of using the same action twice in a rouind. Therefore you may be able to fire full auto with fire for effect then fire a standard attack as a reaction (or vice versa) but you still can't fire full auto twice in a round.

Squad mode abilities are the exception to normal rules.

Another way to look at this is to consider Squad Mode abilities and special talents are often in addition or on top of the core rules. The core rule says you may only fire your weapon up to the rate of fire indicated in the profile. Bolter Drill stacks on top of that and calls out that it gives a bonus to the ROF, essentially 'breaking' the rule.

Just to back up Herichimo here, the core rules specifically state (page 236) that you cannot make the same half action twice in the same turn, meaning you can't shoot the same weapon twice in the same turn. This is called out in the text block that describes what free, half, full, and extended actions are.

As KommissarK points out, you might technically get away with full auto and a single shot (as they're two different primarry actions, one is a standard attack, the other a full auto attack) when using a suspensor but 99% of us agree that type of cheesery is not the RAI.

herichimo said:

Yes i do know that it is a machine gun. And I have had plenty experience with those.

Walking the fire to another target and splitting the rounds is fair enough. I know it is not a bad rule or anything. What I do dislike and that is perhaps an underlying reason for my earlier post is the fact that the SM cant fire shorter full auto bursts. It would surprise me very much if the HB was designed to fire 10 rounds when the trigger is pulled. The idea that the gunner would hold the trigger down and just rock and roll is more a juvie that just found a heavy stubber or an orc with a dakka firing because it makes a nice sound IMO.

Yes, it's a waste of ammunition and I see where you're coming from. However; you get a +20 for full auto for delivering a large volume of fire. How about I want to save ammo and fire a 3 shot burst into something. So I fire my three shots and get a +20.... but hang on, there! +20 for three shots? So maybe I need to fire 10 to get +20... so do I get +6 for a three shot burst?

My point being that additional house rules for 'obvious' things tend to have knock-on effects that need to also be considered.

If you want to house-rule that a HB can fire shorter bursts, then go for it, but be aware that this is going to result not only in the nullification of one of the HB's only downsides (ammunition consumption), but it's also going to require other new supporting rules.

As to splitting full auto between two half actions... just 'no' to my mind. It's cheesy. It would make the HB is even better than it already is. Now, I haven't had balance issues with the HBs (or maybe I'm just more accepting of the capabilities and other disadvantages of support weapons), but this rule would break the camel's back. I agree that HBs should be good, but they should not utterly dominate every breathing moment of combat. I'd be essentially giving a player two chances to kill stuff, EACH with a +20 modifier. That's just the same as saying 'Hit with two more heavy bolt shells each round' or 'make that a +40 bonus for full auto', plus the advantage of less ammunition use, less ammunition 'wastage' (two shots each of which benefits from gaining up to five DoS is far, FAR better than one where you need 10 DoS to fully use your ammunition) and the massive advantage of covering a much wider area with what is already the team's most powerful weapon (thus grinding dirt in the face of anyone who invested in the Independent Targeting talent).

Siranui said:

It is a kickass weapon that owns all. Yes.

The modifiers can be really simple.

5 rounds = +10 modifier

less that 5 = 0

more than 5 less than 10 = +10 modifier.

10 rounds = +20

So the gunner doesnt get all the benefits, but conserves ammo.

And Independent Targeting should be mandatory to be able to fire two half bursts. That way there are more Talents needed for the Devastator.

Malaclypsedk said:

Bare in mind that as you've written it, it's the equivalent of dual wielding heavy bolters, with the Two Weapon weilder melee talent, with the only exception being the maximum degree of success on each attack is limited to 5.

Malaclypsedk said:

Err...yes he does. Even after halving the bonus to +10, it's still FAR better to fire a HB like this than it is normally, and you're making what is probably recognised as the most OP weapon in the game more OP.

Consider the maths. Back of *** packet working, but it should be about right:

Dev fires at target for full round. Crosses off 10 shots, and rolls to hit at +20, giving -say- an 70% chance of a hit. 2.8 hits on average. At best, 7 rounds will hit.

Dev fires two bursts for half round each. Crosses off 10 shots and has +10 to hit on each, giving 60% hit chance. 2 hits PER BURST on average, or 4 hits. Potentially, all 10 rounds can hit, whereas that would be normally impossible.

Even putting aside the advantages of minimising ammunition consumption and being able to fire at two spaced targets, you've just increased the lethality of HBs by about 35%. That's... broken.