In my group there is one who is interested in becoming a necromancer. As the GM, I'm trying to think of a way to make this work within the rules of the game. Should he need to change to a wizard career and get the Dark Magic talent, or should he only need the Dark Magic talent? Or is there some other way that would be smoother rules-wise? We have the Creature Vault so there are necromantic actions he could buy. (He is a Priest of Morr by the way.)

Also, when I bought The Witch's Song another player has asked if it would be possible for him to become a Witch (he is an Amethyst Wizard), to which I replied that it would make him a rogue wizard, hunted by his Wizard Order. Is this a good solution?

Necromancers are hounded at the slightest rumor the Empire over. Couple that with the Cult of Morr's views on necromancy and that poor poor player is giong to have to deal with the Raven Knights as well as Witch Hunters and villagers who are apt to burn anyone that looks creepy.

Wizards turning rogue don't live long. They won't just be hunted down by their own order...but by every order. They are already barely suffered witches as it is without letting some uppity acolyte go all Rambo.

I guess the most player friendly way of addressing it is that mechanically it really is possible. But...man...this setting is already punishing enough without poking it in the eye

To get at the severity in terms of other fictional analogues it'd be like a sith lord wandering into the Jedi Temple, strutting into the council chambers and shooting Yoda with force lightning...and then wondering why things suddenly turned sour. Sure it IS possible (in a total fictional not real kind of way) but...categorized under bad idea.

Being a rogue wizard is perhaps the most dangerous occupation in the whole Empire.

When you belong to a college, you're known, registered in the whole system. Thus the only way to leave the system again, is by dying, otherwise you'll forever be either a retired wizard, or practising wizard, and casting anything but the color magic will brand you as a rogue wizard.

If you're a witch, you're unknown as a caster, till another wizard sees you cast magic. Note that witches casts very low rank spells (rank 1 max), which means they don't draw much attention to themselves.

To rule a necromancer, I'd really just use Witch career, and then have the player purchase Dark Magic talent.

I would though also require the player to actually find grimoires with the spells, as we're talking forbidden lore, so should be a tak in itself to find it.

re Necromancer, staying in Warhammer core views, this is a "fast path to destruction" (as opposed to the slower occassionally dropping down a manhole route of other PC's), unless one "grabs the big ring" (and most don't).

I would make Insanity a mandatory, as it is for Zealot. You've got to be nuts to walk this path intentionally. Most Witches "slide into it" as hedge magic users etc, the way the one in Witch's Song does. Fellowship is going to take a beating as you channel the energies involved.

Rogue Wizard is not quite as bad mechanically. If you're breaking "college rules" I would take a look at the penalties for casting spells over your Rank and make the ones for casting "outside your School" worse. Still, as noted, you have an entire Order of Wizards dedicated to seeing you dead, the College system being in part a way of controlling and tracking people with magical aptitude to make sure only ones using it properly are allowed to live.

In both cases, it's head for the Border Princes region etc.

valvorik said:

lol +1.

We used to refer to the Border Princes as Boca Raton for high level Warhammer characters, because they usually had enough people and things wanting them dead in the Empire that fleeing to the BP's became a really popular retirement destination.

I really appreciate all your answers. This path these two players are taking will surely lead to their own ruin in one way or another, but I wanted to give them the opportunity to take that path if they wanted. That is why I wanted suggestions for how to handle this. Should they prove resourceful enough to survive, I wanted to have rules for how to handle their "careers" and I think your answers really helped. Thank you.

I always thought there was a double standard when it came to PCs using badwrong magic.

When it's NPCs, then you can't turn a corner without uncovering some hidden cult or necromancer. The empire is filthy with them, and no one (except the players natch) can do anything about it.

When the PCs start doing this stuff, then suddenly these fully-funded, elite hit teams come out of the woodwork. Where were they when the PCs were busting up the cults?

It's not like Dark Magic doesn't have enough drawbacks by itself (corruption), but some people think there needs to be some extra level of punishment that doesn't normally seem to exist for others.

Doc, the Weasel said:

I agree with this. The hedge magic and dark magic talents come built in with mechanical drawbacks (at least if you actually want to use the magic, and especially if you want to do so in difficult situations).

If the players are clever, and you're all happy with the direction the campaign is going (taking anti-hero to the next level), then there's no reason they shouldn't be able to get away with it for quite a long time. You could have a lot of fun with parties of adventurers (righteous paragons, gangs of thugs, etc) stumbling across the players, as well as Empire officials from time to time.

To make sure the players realise the seriousness of what they're doing I would probably be strict with how I dealt with insanities and corruption. i.e., not 'burning' corruption for extra bad dice on rolls, so that slowly and steadily the players become more crazy, mutated and/or worried about becoming so.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Why would the "fully funded, elite hit teams" have to immediately spring out of the ground? I don't think that's what folks are saying up above (I sure wasn't). It's just that EVENTUALLY using dark magic and other miscellaneous yuck is going to leave a character more corrupt than your average PC. Eventually someone will have a chance to notice babies dying as you walk down the street and the clippity clop of your hooves.

At THAT point, enter folks that take care of that kind of thing (Witch hunters, undead slayers, whatever). It doesn't even have to be a witch hunter. Heck it might be a group of local townsfolk that have decided you need to be put down consisting of a Rat Catcher, Road Warden, Coachman and an Initiate of Sigmar....

Of course, all that being said a perfectly upright and chaste character can grow an extra nose on their face and get hounded by mutant killing witch hunters alongside any rogue wizard or necromancer. I think the main thing to let players know is that choosing to play a dark magic wielder or a rogue wizard is not the best way to survive long term, especially when so many other things are going to make their lives tough as it is.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Think one has to remember that the PC's are lead characters in the show, they might not be heroic, but they're the center of the story (or close to the center...).

Maybe 95% of all commoners in the Empire ever see any action, they never stumble upon Nurgle cults, and never rescue a city from Greater Deamon summoning rituals. But the PC commoner does so!

Same for hedge wizards, cultists etc... many go unnoticed, but if they're played by players, then they should naturally get attention!
I think most players would be fairly miffed if you played 5 sessions, where their commoner, ratcatcher and soldier didn't see any action, just talked to various villagers, ate some food, slept etc... They want action! Try'n have your players see the noticeboard in EfaE, and then when they ask Vern Hendrich, have him say "Sorry, allready found helpers", and then let them see 4 similiar looking adventurers like them.

But when said players wants to play with dark powers, they suddenly want privacy, tune down the action etc...

PC's will get much much more attention than any others, wether they play commonor or necromancer. They get the jobs, they see the mysterious cloaked man, they get approached by the Morr Priest, they find the old skeleton with a scrollcase, they get jumped by beastmen in the woods, they... etc... etc... Warhammer is not a buffét where you can pick what you like, things happen, good or bad, but they happen!

Finally my take on it is also from the perspective, that to many players wants to play "Evil" because it's c33wl, Vampire, Necromancer, Chaos Warrior etc... They never actually roleplay the descent into this madness!
For the Players it has no consequence, so they much to often fail to put themself in their characters position and think about why one would risk everything, to do what they do?

Should note that I would never throw waves after waves of witch-hunter elite squads at evil PC's, but they will get more attention, than evil npc's.

I'm not saying that characters who dabble in dark magic don't have something to hide, and that there aren't consequences for their actions. I just think that sometimes those consequences don't jive with precedent.

Either the Empire is in a state of corrupt decay, or it isn't. How is it that the player has to work extremely hard to convince multiple townsfolk that the Burgomeister is a cultist leader, when a PC getting caught casting necromancy by some vagrant kid in an alley leads to a witch hunter crew being sent from Altdorf. Having it radically change like that for the PCs (center of the story or not) sounds like being punitive for punitive's sake.

If you don't want your players dabbling in Dark Magic, don't give them the option. If you do give them the option, then let them play it out without throwing the book at them. Personally, I think a story of living in fear of being caught is much more interesting than being openly hunted.

... and if you are worried that your players "never actually roleplay the descent into this madness," then throwing enemies at them won't fix that.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Think I misunderstood you then, I completely agree that the same rules should aply players as they do for npc's. So I would never have powerfull tough WH's turn up constantly.

What I meant was, that players who turn to darker arts should expect more attention from the GM (and thus from various npc's), than the standard npc doing the same. So in effect, over time powerfull witchhunters will eventually get wind of it, but of course not the second the player uses his first minor dark magic spell

I see the players as magnets of "things happening", so if they're "non-dark magic users" they will be a magnet of crazy cultists, backstabbing priests, insane zealots etc... And if they're playing "dark magic users", they'll be magnets of suspecious townfolk, insane zealots, and over time witch hunters as well.

But that doesn't mean their life is forfeit, or that the first Witch Hunter will win the fight, or even find them (the players could come across a village being victim of inqusition, for crimes they've actually done earlier). They should also get a good chance at escaping punishment.

If you have players that want to play dark characters, why not move your campaign outside the empire, the old world is a big place after all. If players want to play dark characters inside the empire then they will have a challenge on their hands. Not only will it be the rest of the world that hates them, it is most likely that their own party will turn against them as well if they are not careful