Hello all,

Was hoping someone might be able to clear the air about this for me. The rules seem rather ambiguous about buying Traits, since they seem meant more for NPCs and enemies than PCs, but it does mention that upgraded Unnatural Characteristics may be prerequisites for advancement under some conditions. With that in mind, how does one calculate the XP cost for buying them?

Thanks for the help!

You wouldn't use the rules to calculate them, you'd have to guess I'm afraid.

Generally though they should be fantastically expensive as they are both fantastically good and hard to get (hence the name 'unnatural'). What specific example were you thinking of, and for what kind of character?

Thanks for the quick reply. Purely as an academic exercise, I was thinking up rules for the Blood Ravens and Salamanders Chapters, respectively, and, as willpower features prominently in the characteristics of each, I was thinking of adding the option to purchase Unnatural Willpower in a putative advancement table for each Chapter.

*ooof*

10,000xp? Maybe 15,000!

I'd avoid allowing access to such a thing unless you want psykers from those Chapters to snap the system over theirs knees. Many effects and damage calls for psyker abilities are based on WP bonus. Unnatural willpower would flat-out double all of those effects and damages, making Librarians from those Chapters vastly better than anyone else. There wouldn't really be a point in playing a Librarian from any other Chapter. I -personally- would consider unnatural WP essentially priceless for Librarians, because it'd unbalance the class. It'd probably be better just to allocate one of the Chapter's statistic advances to willpower. After all: The Imperial Fists are far more famed for their willpower and fearlessness than the Salamanders/Blood ravens and it is -in their case- reflected by a +10WP.

There's a thread on this forum from yesterday called 'Newbie Question: How to get additional traits' that discusses the issue as well.

From a straight score system 3-5k sounds appropriate, but the fact that WP can make the psy powers out of control really changes the value statement. However you slice it, make sure as a GM you're ready to deal with it and the ramifications of other PCs and ramifications on the bad guys. I'd look at things like chapter relics or trappings that boost psy powers or WP without outright doubling (or more) the bonus; give the feel of what you want without blowing things up.

FWIW, the other thread is here: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=212&efcid=3&efidt=477719&efpag=1

I've taken appart the marine career to create scout and unnatural strength and toughness are worth about 2.500 xp each...
The others should be atleast triple that so 7.500xp.....15.000 for Unnatural Willpower because it is a real gamebreaker.

i could see unnatural intelligence for blood ravens. but then again, i hate those guys

Tunnelhckrat said:

Unnatural Inel I'd think would be less costly than some given the application of it is much more restricted- you'd get +10 to knowledge rolls and if you're an apothecary heal quite a bit more, but it's not as game altering as toughness and willpower (or even strength).

Charmander said:

Unless it's somone with combat formation. This talent combined with unnatural int can be very strong.
I see that in our ascension game where my sage has both and that way really boosts the initiative of everyone in the group besides the temple assassin.

Thanks for all the input so far, guys. I'm still very new to this system and feeling my way through. I figured Unnatural Willpower might be a bit abusive for psykers, but given the epic feel of WH40k, it might be justified under some circumstances, possibly as a choice for epic specialties for certain chapters, like Fists/Salamanders, and come to think of it, Unnatural Perception/Intelligence might be better for Blood Ravens.

Right now, though, my concern is building a Chapter advantageous psykers without breaking the game, for instance Blood Ravens, a.k.a. the loyalist Thousand Sons. How woud you do so? I had some ideas, including a one-off WP bonus as part of the starting benefits package, making WP cheaper to buy at each level, PR rating one stage higher at each level of advancement, or some combination of the above.

I mentioned Salamanders mostly because it started off as an idle rumination on the legendary tenacity of that Chapter (and because I really like them), but the project very quickly became about Blood Ravens and how to reflect the fact that they have more psykers per capita than anyone else and tend to be better than average at using psychic powers, again, without breaking the game.

And thanks for the link to the other thread. Made for some enlightening reading.

Umbranus said:

Hmm, good point. In DW this would be a real consideration- I'd argue in Ascension it would depend on the group, given that the assassins can get 20+ modifieres and the psykers can get ridonculous modifiers, at that point you're just bringing the group up to par.

@Hammer: I'm no psyker expert by any stretch, but to start I'd consider lengthening their list of chapter powers, and probably rely largely on taking existing powers and modifying the names and description and then tweak bits here and there. Blood Lance becomes 'Claws of the Raven' or some such, and rather than a bolt of blood red energy it's a black spectral raven that claws the guys eyes out, doing slighly reduced damage but giving the victim a chance to be blinded or stunned for x rounds (or perhaps steal more or less the Space Wolf Power and replace shocking with a couple other minor powers...as shocking sucks against folks in power armor...and now that I think about it maybe the shocking part of their power should ignore armor as a house rule so it's more effective on elites...hmmm, should probably search on those powers)

I think in the house rules forum there are some rules regarding Blood Ravens, I'd suggest doing a search for them- not looked at them myself so I can't say if I like them or if I don't.

hammer_2020 said:

WP cheaper per level would be a game-changingly new mechanic in many ways, as no other Chapters offers such things. Increased Psi levels is flat-out making BR libbies better than everyone else's and should probably also be avoided.

Be wary of making a no-brainer choice and basically encouraging any player of a librarian to play a blood raven to the exclusion of other Chapters. A +5WP is pretty much motivation enough, to my mind. I'd also stay well clear of unnatural intelligence. Unnatural stats are the most powerful way of stressing an aspect, and there are many better, smaller measures that can be employed. Just add 'foresight' to their Chapter advances, for example.

Remember that Blood Raven librarians aren't the most powerful in the galaxy, or indeed supposedly more powerful that any others. It's just that psykers are more common within the ranks. Perhaps instead of focusing on making one single class within the Chapter more powerful, it might be a better idea to instead provide a Chapter advantage that is more widely useful. Perhaps making psiniscience (or however you spell it!) as Chapter skill available to all marines, and then also perhaps making talented (psiniscience) also available which would give a unique advantage to the Chapter's Librarians (being more sensitive to psi patterns and presence) without flat-out making them more powerful.

Siranui said:

This is a very good idea.

Siranui said:

A Quick question on this, as I'm fairly new myself. It seems to me that the offensive psychic powers just use your psy rating to determine their damage. The only thing I've come across in the book about unnatural WP is that it counts as adding to the psy rating of the marine. So, essentially, isn't it essentially the same as simply giving a librarian +1 to their psy rating? That, and I suppose helping a little on opposed tests...

Please by all means correct me if I'm being ignorant in the slightest!

Some effects (maybe not the most damaging ones ) use the WP bonus.

And yeah, it does not do the damages it does in DH, but that's still a game changer (+10 to all WP tests, basically) and may throw some powers completely off balance.

lordc447 said:

Well for starters it would make all focus tests 1 degree less dificult. so a -10 test would become a +0 test. Unnatural doesn't give you +10 to the characteristic tests, it just makes them easier. This increases the chance of getting the power off, mitigates some penalties, and would increase the Degrees of Success (DoS) on any test you make (which would increase damage on a lot of the powers).

It also benefits opposed tests. If you pass an opposed test with unnatural stat you add your unnatural multiplier to your DoS. (for Unnatural Wp x2 you'd add 2 DoS.) Thats in addition to the benefits from the above paragraph. Against non unnatural Wp characters therefore you get an additional 2 DoS to beat them (Plus the "extra" DoS from the easier test). Against characters with Unnatural Wp you've evened the playing field, and its more likely you'll beat them with an opposed Wp test. Essentially with the +2 DoS and the easier test from the unnatural characteristic, you get +3 DoS on any opposed test you make with an unnatural characteristic. (remembering many psychic powers increase damage with each DoS).

So Unnatural Wp makes for one scary psycher. I wouldn't allow it for a PC.

I'd say it's a valid question because, if you will remember, in Ascension for DH, the Primaris Psyker and the Inquisitor (Psykers can become Inquisitors) have access to Unnatural Willpower all the way to x3. It's expensive, but it can be done. Combine the broad range of powers and abilities to which the Primaris has access and compare that to the powers available to a Librarian. Librarians don't stand a chance in that realm.

Of course you could look at it this way, Primaris Psykers can't do what a Librarian can. Really, if it comes down to a showdown between a Lib and a Prim, my money's on the Lib. This is simply because the Lib wears power armor, knows how to use a bolter and could, with bare hands, rip a Prim assunder. All-in-all, it's your choice, but I wouldn't do it. Remember that Librarians are Astartes first, no matter what.

there are rules for it throughout As, RT and DW:

in ascension primaris psykers and inquisitors can get unnatural willpower (x2) and (x3) for 1k and 2k xp repsectively and ascension is in the same xp band approx as DW and a few of the enemies in that also have this
Ultra Node from the Genestealer cults also gives the Dominatixes and Norn Queens Unnatural Willpower several times
Lady Solace (from DotDG) has Un.WP(x2)
there are rules for unnatural willpower for DW on pg 186 of DW core rulebook:

'unnatural characteristics and Psychic Powers
Creatures and Characters with Unnatural Willpower can make for shockingly powerful psykers. Characters with Unnatural Willpower may add the multiplier to their Psy Rating and any successes on opposed tests as part of psychic powers (both to enact and resist them). '

anything marked my the mark mof tzeentch get Un.WP(x2)
also rules for it on pg 157 of RT core rulebook

Charmander said:

In ascension the psykers can get unnatural willpower x3. I made one that had willpower 91 and unnatural x3. I agree that it's humungously overpowered but then again, so is the vindicare assassin with his 16 dodges and there's more like that.

Personally: i don't see a problem here. There's more then enough ways to counter a strong psyker, even one as ridiculously strong as one with unnatural willpower X2 or X3.

For the OP: i'd make it at 5k XP cost but only available at higher levels (the last 2-3).

Badlapje said:

Really? Because if I was sitting around the table, and the GM said 'sure joe, you can have an unnatural WP on your Librarian, making you twice as good', I'd be pretty %£$"ed off! Balance isn't just a matter of balance with the GM's critters, but balance with the party. And Libbies are already quite a strong class.

I'm not sure if it's because a lot of people here played DH before they got into Deathwatch or because I'm not reading the Unnatural Willpower rules correctly, but a lot of what has been said here seems to be wrong.

1. Almost none of the Deathwatch psychic powers use a character's Willpower bonus for determining damage or effects. I just skimmed over the psychic powers list and the only one I found that even mentioned Willpower bonuses was Glory of the Emperor, which can only be used a number of times per day equal to a character's WP bonus. In all other cases, and in all cases where a psychic power deals damage, the power is based around PR, which is not based on Willpower.

2. Unnatural Willpower is available to Ascension characters at a comparatively low costs (1k-3k iirc). This is in the context of a different psychic powers system, which does use Willpower for determining damage and effects, and it was considered balanced enough to get into the high-power level that Deathwatch supposedly plays at. With respect, that poster on the first page who suggested that it cost 15k experience has been smoking crack.

3. Unnatural Willpower does effect Focus Power tests, but the bonus is not huge. It negates penalties (I can't remember our group's GM ever imposing penalties on a focus power test) and provides two bonus degrees of success. Contrary to what posters here have said, no Deathwatch psychic power that I am aware of deals extra damage for gaining extra degrees of success on the Focus Power test. A few use Opposed Willpower tests, in which case the extra degrees would be useful, but not overpowered, and they're powers like Compel that tend to get overlooked by players more interested in the explodey-smashy powers.

4. Unnatural Willpower does have one extra affect for psykers, mentioned on page 186 of the rulebook. It states that "characters with Unnatural WIllpower may add the multiplier to their Psy Rating and any successes on opposed tests as part of psychic powers." This has been misread by myself and a probably few people here as stating that Unnatural Willpower multiplies a character's Psy Rating. That's not actually what it says: it says you add the multiplier . The multiplier is the number in x(number), which in the case of Unnatural Willpower x2 has a value of 2, and for Unnatural Willpower x3 has a value of 3. This means a Librarian with PR 5 and Unnatural Willpower x2 would have an effective PR of 7, not 10.

So all Unnatural Willpower x2 does for a Librarian is give him +2 to his Psy Rating (considerable, but not ridiculous) and some extra degrees of success on opposed tests which are only situationally beneficial. It's potent, but it's not overpowered. You're certainly not making a Librarian twice as powerful. This is the case in Ascension, however, where the damage dealing powers are in the format of 1d10xWP and not 1d10xPR, so Ascension characters actually benefit hugely more from Unnatural Willpower than Deathwatch characters do due to the nature of their psychic powers.

I would, however, abstain from putting it in a Blood Ravens chapter advancement table because while it's not overpowered, it is a little too powerful for a chapter advance, especially considering that no other chapter advancement tables include Unnatural characteristics or Traits of any kind. The suggestion earlier to give all Blood Ravens Psyniscience and a bunch of Lore skills is much more appropriate.

If you've got a player who's looking at getting it, making it an Elite Advance at anywhere from 1500-3000 experience is suitable, or else providing it through a unique relic that the character saves and is entrusted with. The only RAW way of getting it is with the Mark of Tzeentch, which is intended for antagonists. We're playing a Chaos game right now, in preparation for Black Crusade, and our house rules have included Unnatural Willpower as a Gift for players with the Mark of Tzeentch at a cost of 2,000 XP and a high Renown requirement.

Bastard of Melbourne said:

The key is that this bonus for Unnatural Willpower is added after determining the Power Level you're using - so if you've got a Psy Rating of 8 and Unnatural WP (x2) (such as the Farseer in Lure of the Expanse ) using a power Fettered, that's Psy Rating 6 without risk.

Beyond that, you're pretty much correct.