In comparison between the 2 races, tau basic weapons are just plain better. As far as DW is concerned, not the case.

Im thinking about upping the damage on the pulse rifle to the same as a hvy bolter without tearing and keeping the current rate of fire. It seems to be a more accurate representation of the gun and make my PCs more wary of tau guns (instead of just wading through them).

Does this sound fair?

Tunnelhckrat said:

Remember that many of those weapons will be used in hordes, meaning that squad of Fire Warriors will be potentially doing 4d10+10 pen 4, up to 4 hits per attack, and any number of attacks depending on your horde size (maybe 3 or more?). Take 32 pen 4 damage (average roll of 5.5 per die) twice to the chest and a Marine with a Toughness of 50 something and standard PA will have just taken 32 wounds (16 damage with each hit). That's not awful if high potential lethality (or late game lethality), is what you're going for- just be careful.

Now if you're not hordifying the Tau troops, or you have an Elite or a Master level enemy, I totally agree the weapons need some kind of a buff in order to scare the Marines.

AK's got the TT weapon stat thread in the HR section, and he proposes giving d10 to burst and pulse weapons, but potentially taking the bonus die away when enemies using them are hordified (so a Stealth Suit Tau would have a bonus D10 but a horde of dudes wielding them would not). I've not personally run with those but the theory seems sound to me.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=213&efcid=3&efidt=402341&efpag=0

I find that the Tau Pulse Weapons have very appropriate stats in comparison to the Bolt weapons in Rogue Trader. As usual, it's the "Astartes-sizing" issue that screws everything up.

The numbers might not look good on paper, but I'd recommend trying them out before changing them. Remember that the numbers have been (hopefully!) playtested and deemed to be balanced and work. If you simply up the damage, a horde of fire warriors might make mincemeat outta the PCs!

About the numbers: it depends on what world you are aiming at. The premises of FFG's Deathwatch is the Space Marines as the supreme warriors in the galaxy (minus master-tier enemies perhaps). One prime vehicle to accomplish that has been for FFG to make Astartes Bolt weapons incredibly good.

If you want more of a tabletop feeling than that, I recommend you to a topic I opened a while ago. The stuff in there is WIP though. Beware though: buffing the Tau plasma will result in many dead PCs very soon. Either that or de-hordify Fire Warriors, in which case they become "each hit a kill" enemies.

Alex

I like those alternate dmg tables, but is the AP just doubled from TT or is it 7-TT ap?

The pulse rifle actually seems statted about right. Its the bolt weapons that are out of kilter. The Bolter has the power the heavy bolter should and the heavy bolter is patently the best weapon in the game about 90% of the time.

I've been there before and when I look through the DW rule book I have to remind myself that it's not about making direct stat or fluff translations of Xeno's, it's about the players being Space Marines.

You should only need to start adjusting the enemies and weapon stats when players start to brag about how they are unstoppable they are.

Face Eater said:

+1 (and my weapon tweaks I stole largley from Alex were a direct result of my players wonderng why they were allowed to do so much damage, and why only with bolters ;-) )

Slight Tangent: @AK: I've not run with the Tau, but I've used the +d10 theory on Tyranids that aren't in a horde and it seems to be working in my group, giving the elites a better scare factor. How has it fared on your table?

@Tunnelhckrat: you calculate 7-Ap (AP from the 40K TT) and then double the result. If you take a look at the weapons in DW, this seems to be a fair approximate (+/-1) most of the time. Similar with the ROF - it's just an approximation and leaves room for adjustment.

Let me just re-iterate that I don't have the opportunity to test these rules much. (see below as to why) I'll be posting an update on my thoughts sometime soon.

Charmander said:

Well we have been playing D&D recently, next up is DH, then RT and then I get to run DW again. So I'm a bit shadowboxing here. Of course I am a math student and veteran gamer so shadowboxing is probably adequate.

It's funny I have just been thinking about this issue of Tau weapons too (we're about to meet Tau in primarchX's online game).

I mean it's a question of what role you want the Astartes to play in your DW universe. FFG's interpretation is that the Astartes are the supreme fighters of the galaxy, no questions asked. Yes, there are master-tier enemies who are better but the Astartes are supposed to bully traitor guards, Tau, Eldar Guardian and even Aspect Warriors and so on. It does make some sense too because their power helps to keep the IoM together.

Other people want a more TT feeling. For them I advice +1d10 damage. It will result in many dead PCs if you don't keep 40K TT power relations in mind. You will probably have to dehordify Fire Warriors. Let's put it this way: if a DW kill-team worth 200 points in the TT engages a full squad of Firewarriors worth 150 pts, you can expect your PCs to prevail but not without losses/burnt karma or so. Unless the players have a situational advantage of course. If you use TT-like stats, think in TT dimensions, which means that if the players don't have a substantial edge, there is bound to be "minis taken off the table."

Right now I am considering a bit of a middle ground adjustment for my game (Shadow of Madness should be next). The Astartes as supreme warriors but the Tau as a dangerous new race. Maybe adding Tearing to the Tau pulse weapons? Or adding to Pen? That would make them more dangerous to vehicles too.

Alex

Part of the reason I'm wary of making Tau firearms 'too scary' is that it might lessen the impact of Necron or (to a lesser extent) Slaugh weaponry. *those* should really put the fear into ranged combat, in the same way that Tyranids invoke the fear in melee. That said, I'm considering upping Tau BS to represent their fancy targeting systems.

Changes aren't really needed. The weapons as they are now can cut through space marines in a game (just ask my assault marine with -1 fate and fancy new eyes). If the problem is your bad-guy squads only survive long enough to shoot once at your players the (I'm sorry to say) your GMing them wrong. Don't put them in a vacume. SM-open space-FW = dead FW.

Part of a roleplaying game is roleplaying... Even as the GM. Give the enemies you use their own combat plans. Let them use the traits and abilities they have. Put them behind cover. Have them use the advanced combat skills to advance and suround your PCs with cover bonuses at the same time firing off suppresing fire. Don't just randomly fire into the characters, give the different enemies different targeting priorities. FW attack the closest (melee targets over ranged) and won't shoot at the heavy gunner in the back unless they have a good chance to kill him. The Tau commander in the suit will try to hang back out of sight untill one of your players does something stupid like seperating from his squadmates. Then he'll jump out and plasma him to death (or at least try). Or he might turn on his jets and fly/sneak into the back to pounce on the players heavy gunner. The enemies you use are not just roadbumps or things you put in front of the players to give them something to throw dice at. They are challenges, make them challenging.

If you give your players a real challenge. If you make them think, force them to use their own abilities and roleplay the combat senario. Then they will have a much greater sense of accomplishment when they complete the mission. And at the same time have more fun playing the game. If you are having trouble challenging your marines, your enemies being not-killy enough is not your problem. Bumping their stats is not likely going to change your game.

I definatly see what you saying. Im really just trying to find a balance in the game.EX: in d and d when you get too a fight, does someone get hurt, almost always, does anyone almost die, possible. this extra d10 for nid weapons, is that using your values above?

@herichimo: This isn't a matter of gaming balance though, it's a matter of game world interpretation. That is something different.

@Tunnelhckrat: the extra d10 for nid weapons isn't a global modifier for them. More details on the concept can be found in my post about making the weapons resemble the TT.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I hear you, I wish my group's schedules weren't so effed up we could at least play something more regularly.

You know the tearing trait is pretty interesting. It brings it a little closer to bolt stats and gives the hordes a pleasant bump without making them complete and total murder machines, and keeps things not totally predictable.

@Tunnelckrat: I liked D&D 3/3.5 for what it was, and admired the challenge rating system for making things pretty simple and predictable for a GM. In DW I've found balance rests more on the GMs shoulders (much like it really did in the Epic D&D where you could be devoured with a lucky roll) and is much harder to tweak properly. In most cases, beyond the initial weapon adjustments, most of my tweaking came from gradually increasing the number and power of my enemies, starting off with things like chaos cultists. I also had run Final Sanction with my group as a one off (that took 4-5 sessions), which gave me a very good feel for the system and my players.