Siranui: The Tac also has better melee ability, much cheaper stat advances, and solid leadership abilities - not every team will have an Ultramarine. When you've got a Storm Warden Tac giving the entire team a free round of surprise against every major enemy, you'll learn to appreciate how much deadlier a Tac can make the KT.

Again, DW is only mostly about shooting combat if you make it so. I can't address that for other players/GMs, but there's probably an even mix overall in my game. Some missions feature more melee, others more firefights, but in total they're pretty close.

Sure, the Apothecary is "defaulting," but when he gets to add +10 for Range and +20/+30 for Size, he still can hit easily. An 80-90% chance of hitting with a Lascannon will hurt no matter who you are.

He often doesn't carry the HB, so it would be more like this (using the old weapon stats here since I haven't used the new ones yet):

Apothecary sees a Horde. Quick Drawing his bolter (with Metal Storm rounds) he fires four shots. Base BS 50 + 20 (full auto) + 20-30 (Size) + another possible 10 or more from Range or other sources = average target number of 90-100. An average roll means all four shots hit x 2 (MS rounds) + 1 = 9 Mag loss, less than a Dev but not horribly so now (this was the big drawback under the old UD). And, he can quickly switch between firing MS rounds at the Horde and Kraken rounds at the Genestealer trying to flank. SoI now is where the big difference will come in, but that's not an early ability that the Dev will quickly pick up.

If you use the new stats, it'll make a huge difference, of course. If anything, the HB is now much more powerful compared to the other Bolt weapons than it was before. That's good and bad: it helps the Dev stand above at range but really hurts the firepower of the other members. Then again, everyone was complaining that the other heavies should be better and more appealing than the HB, so it's not like the HB will always be picked for the mission, anyway.

Stormast: It wasn't the Dev's abilities doing that, it was the awesome HB (and crazy Righteous Fury rules).

I hope you're right (and now I'm tempted to add a dancing Lictor to one of my scenarios ). So far, it hasn't really been a problem for me. The only Hive Tyrant that completely approached the KT in the open (when I ran Extraction) first sent in a bunch of minions to keep them busy and then approached using a swarm of Shrikes to provide cover while it unleashed psychic abilities. The Dev killed a lot of Shrikes but the HT lasted long enough that the team came out of that last fight limping.

Brand said:

The Tac gets swift attack. At about rank 6. That's not 'melee ability', that's 'one talent'. The Tac is *not* an all-rounder. The get less 'cheap' advances, and none in any combat statistics (y'know: The ones that are being rolled about 80%-90% of the time). They are a shooter class with leadership abilities. And as to tactical flexibility as regards patterns; that was a unique ability prior to RoB, but there are now four discrete methods of doing that via Deed, Distinction, and two specialised talents. Anyone can do it.

If we're using pre-errata data, then surely it's best compared with pre-errata UD?

And if you're tossing in MS rounds into the equation and using the old stats, then even with a standard bolter (which you don't get UD for, I believe) then the Dev is delivering 60+30+20+10 = 120 target number = 4.7 (with BD) x3 +1 = 15, whereas the Apo is doing an actual average = 3.7 x2 +1 = 8. Again: The Dev is twice as good, even discarding his class ability. If we put aside approximations and look at the average across the dice range, the Dev has a huge advantage.

As to the las-connon example; that's valid on some kind of flat terrain with loads of modifiers, but those aren't the normal circumstances, because GMs like to pile on those negatives to give foes a fighting chance. Even at an 80% hit chance, the Apo is missing twice (or more) often than the Dev with his comfortable 100% skill and ability to fire on the move and negate pretty much any modifiers you can think of. That's still a big difference.

Not having RoB, I can't speak to what it has and what effects there are. However, I was talking about the cheap stats that the Tac has - every one is, at most, 500 XP for the first rank. Compare that to the Dev who starts at 750 XP for Agi/WS, the major melee stats. If you want to buy a few of these to help in melee, the Tac will quickly be saving thousands of XP compared to a Dev who did the same. The Tac is an "all-rounder" because it lacks any of the glaring holes of the others, such as the Dev's melee ability or the Tech's Willpower. Nothing is horribly expensive for him, and even at Rank 1 he has access to both melee (Double Team) and ranged (Rapid Reload) Talents. He can also get SoI at the same time as the Dev, Rank 4, for a just a little more XP.

I said that UD made the Dev much better than the Apothecary in Horde-killing, pre-errata (It was the one major difference). Now there's not such a huge gap until they become experienced enough for SoI to affect things. I haven't bothered with the math again, but you can't just say that twice as much Horde-damage is huge. If we were talking about 100 compared to 50, sure. But on average, until SoI comes into play, the Dev will only be doing single digit greater damage than another character armed with a versatile weapon (Bolter with multiple ammo types). If the Dev wants to take a HB and a backpack full of MS ammo, he's gonna be blowing a lot of Requisition and hindering himself against non-Hordes. He'll be cursing those rounds when the Hive Tyrant shows up.

Again, the Apothecary hits far more often than not, and he's not necessarily wanting to always be on the move. Not having to babysit a Dev, too, means the team only has to "protect" one character - a character that can easily take down his share of enemies AND heal everyone after the fight (or during, if things completely fall apart).

Brand said:

IOW: they are not cheap but medium-priced.

Brand said:

And will end being pretty much as ineffective for as long as he has only 1 attack and 1 parry per round. Every melee opponent worth anything will eat both of them alive.

Brand said:

No, we've been above this before and Siranui is right. The Tac is a shooty leader class which turns only into an all-rounder at high levels. Before he gets Swift Attack, the Tac ain't worth spit in melee (compared to the enemies who are good at melee like Nid Warrior, Genestealer, etc.)

Brand said:

First of all, double damage is good. Over the course of multiple rounds the Dev will inflict 100 damage where the Apo only does 50. And Siranui didn't figure in the +1d5 from UD (possibly +1d5x2 with Metal Storm).

And you don't put Metal Storm into a backpack, you put Kraken rounds in there. And bring along 2 clips of Metal Storm for specialty work. And with Mighty Shot (which your Apo does not have) and Kraken rounds, I can hurt the HT notably more than any other team member with any other ranged weapon.

With about 4 points or so penetrating per hit, I'll sth like -20 wound points damage per attack. Not bad.

Btw, Kraken rounds just get better due to reduction of Bolt weapons Pen. I'm okay with this given the errata'd Kraken rounds price. And Hellfire rounds in a HB suck. They'd need Felling(2) to make them somewhat worthwhile and even then... I can't see it of any use except against a Hive Guard cluster maybe. Otherwise it's really bad.

Alex

No, the overall price is cheap - he has no expensive stat advances. His "expensive" stats are still cheaper than the expensive stats of the Dev or Tech. Try adding up all those advances sometime and you'll see just how cheap they really are compared to some of the others.

I didn't say the Tac would dominate in melee or even be better than the Assault. I said he was a mix and had better melee abilities, which he does. Ignore the cheaper stats and melee Talents if you want, but that doesn't mean he can't take them. He may not be able to beat your typical melee enemy in 1-on-1, but he has a hell of a lot better shot than the Dev.

No one is good compared to a Genestealer in melee. Experienced Assaults struggle. If that's your definition of not being able to fight in melee, then you have to disqualify every single Specialty, possibly even the Assault. The Tac has melee abilities, and saying that he doesn't won't change the Specialty's advance charts. If the Tac isn't an all-rounder, then no such thing exists in DW. He has more shooty abilities, true, but the fact remains he has both abilities whether you admit it or not.

Double damage depends on the situation. The fight likely won't last long enough for the numbers to get so high because the other KT members will be doing damage, too. Metal Storm does not double the damage from UD. And good luck taking that arrangement of ammo. You'll need a suspensor to even be able to fire without wasting a round loading, assuming you have Rapid Reload, and that's already 65 Requisition without taking any other gear or items. You'll only be affording that on longer missions, especially if you're going by the new, lowered Req errata.

Mighty Shot is not a great Talent except with the HB. 2 points on top of 40 isn't that impressive. Plus, with the push to move away from the HB, the Talent's role is lessened even more

Again, I'm fully in agreement that the Dev is the best shooter. But he doesn't outclass everyone else the way the Assault does with melee.

Brand said:

I'd agree Metal Storm wouldn't double UD, UD would stack on top of it. But Storm of Iron Might.

As for the ammo load out, I'm not sure I see the problem with it, and I certainly don't see the neccessity of the suspensor; the switch out of kraken to metal storm if more than a single horde pops up. You sacrifice one round of shooting and probably do two rounds worth of mag damage the next turn.

And I'd disagree on Mighty Shot; it is a great talent that just gets better with autofire. It's not about having one talent, piece of equipment, or trait that gives you +2, it's about tying them all together. Maybe +2 to a characteristic isn't all that, but to damage it's nothing to scoff at, especially when dealing with high armor/toughness enemies.

Brand said:

No, he isn't. Even as high as Rank 5, all he has on the Dev is Double Team, whose greatest benefit is in aiding a nearby Assault Marine and having I guess +10 WS in comparison to the Dev. Even if he had +20 in comparison it wouldn't amount to much because it's not so much your WS that counts (unless you have ultra high or ultra low WS) but solely the number of attacks and parries/dodges.

And against 3 Nobz in melee, the Dev would actually have a better chance due to Stalwart Defence. (Which gives additional parries.)

Brand said:

The Tac isn't an all-rounder because a negligible advantage doesn't make you an all-rounder. And nice picking out my mentioning the Genestealer when the GS and the Nid Warriors have been the only dedicated melee specialists among the published elite-tier enemies. I might as well have added Harlequins, Nobz or Mandrakes. Against 1 of them the Tac may have a small advantage due to +10WS. Against 2 of them, the Dev has the substantial advantage of unlimited parries.

Having +10 or +15 more WS than your average Joe Marine means little and it doesn't make you an all-rounder. Now if you had at least one additional attack or parry, that would make you an all-rounder. But for the most part of his career (Ranks 1 to 5), the Tac simply isn't.

Brand said:

I don't need any suspensor. You only don't have the time to switch when ambushed by a horde which shouldn't happen all that often. Other than that you see the horde approaching or you approach the horde and you plug out the backpack and put in the Metal Storm clip.

Brand said:

No he doesn't. Does he have to? Yeah, a kill-team can do without a Devastator. I don't know about you guys but I don't pick my specialty based on whether a KT can do with or without one. I tend to play what I want to play.

Alex

Brand said:

As others have said; regardless of the theory of mid-priced stats and the underwhelming ability to purchase two whole melee talents (one at rank 6!), the Tac is *not* a melee capable character. Nothing being overly expensive is not as striking advantage as at first it seems, because players don't buy more than one expensive advance (Generally. I certainly don't see Devs rush out to buy their first and second WS advances) and the Tac doesn't get enough XP in the game to take advantage of all the medium-priced stat-ups. Truth be told, that an Apo, Libby and Tech are all probably better in melee than a Tac.

The Tac really fares little better in melee than a Dev. The Tac maybe will purchase an extra 10WS, but that's still pretty moot, as neither will have the wargear for melee, neither has the talents for it, neither has more than one reaction, and the Tac only gets his second attack late in the game. It's pretty much down to how the dice roll.

I don't think that you're XP expenditure is very realistic either. It's unlikely that any Dev would ever buy a 'few' WS at all. Sure: If you add up the total amount of XP the Tac might theoretically save by buying every stat-up compared to a Dev it's cheaper. But that's a false comparison, as nobody can buy every stat-up, and people buy stat-ups that are cheap and their character focus, rather than expensive and outside of their speciality.

Doing double the horde damage isn't huge? But...erm... it kinda is... it's like having two Apos standing there, instead of one.

The comparison with bolters was with the Dev picking up a normal bolter, too. So it's not reasonable to state that the Apo is armed with a versatile weapon and infer that the Dev is not. (That's why I didn't count UD by the way: It only counts with heavy weapons).

You can't base a statistical analysis on 'an average roll of 50' [for starters because 50 isn't an average roll...], and I think this is where a lot of the misconceptions are coming in. *at first glance* it looks like anyone who picks up a firearm can pretty much match the Dev for damage output. But when you actually do the in-depth maths and get past the first glance, the truth is totally different. I made the mistake myself too, and it took a while for it to sink in that the Tac was *not* even a second tier melee character and that the Dev was *far* more effective in ranged combat than anyone else.

Hitting 'far more often than not' isn't really a great guideline, either. The difference between hitting an incoming heavy tank with a las cannon 80% of the time and 95% of the time is really rather large (especially when there starts to be penalties, which the Dev can just ignore anyway) because with high-threat targets, it's not the chance of hitting that counts, but the chance of missing. And the Apo is four times more likely to in our example. That means the party is four times more likely to have to take a round of attacks from a high-threat target, and that ain't good news!

I'm certainly not arguing that an Apo is more valuable for the team than a Dev, and I don't think that anyone would. But for me it's the Tac who is by far the most replaceable. Yes: You can go without a Dev too; but the idea that an Apo with a boltgun and a couple of magazines of specialist ammunition is worth even half a Dev for raw damage output is based on highly flawed analysis.

A bit of back-of-the-cigarette-packet maths:

Apo: 50BS, bolter with 2x metal storm magazines ( which is only 18 bursts worth) = 30 requisition

bolter on semi-auto, +20 horde bonus = 80% chance.

= 4.6 damage to hordes

Dev: 60BS, heavy bolter with bolter drill, with a backpack full of metalstorm rounds (35 bursts = twice the number of horde-killing shots!) = 30 requisition.

heavy bolter on full auto, +20% bonus = 100% chance

= 5.9 damage to hordes without storm of iron OR metalstorm

=11.8 with one of the options.

= 17.7 with both.

Giving the Apo metalstorm ammunition might seem like it's adding cheap flexibility, but 18 bursts isn't going to get you through a mission, whereas 35 is a bit more likely to... all for the same price. Or we can give the Apo as equal amount of metal storm, but that costs 60 Req instead of 30. So in a pretty fair comparison, we see the Apo is doing a third of the horde damage. If we give the Apo a heavy bolter and a pack of metal storm, that's 50Req and puts his damage output up to... 4.9... less than half the Dev is doing, even without SoI.

Now let's turn our guns onto a tyrant, with 15TB and 10 armour:

<snip>

That was too embarrassing to even post in depth. The Apo wasn't doing more than tickling it, even with an HB, while the Dev's Mighty Shot talent and skill was making a massive difference.

Charmander: I use SoI as doubling MS damage, but last I heard that wasn't the official ruling on it. The suspensor is necessary if you want to fire that round. Otherwise, you could very well be waiting a round, and if the Horde has ranged weapons you might find that a bit painful.

Mighty Shot is great with aurofire...which the new rules have all but done away with. The HB still benefits from it, but as everyone can see there's a bigger push for the Dev to take other heavy weapons more often.

ak: Double Team is a very good Talent--my Tac and Assault Marine were often getting +30 to attack even at Rank 1 because they both had it and worked together. WS counts plenty; I have no clue how you see a small damage boost from Mighty Shot as awesome but a 10-20% difference in hitting and parrying ability as negligible.

Stalwart Defense is fantastic, but if you don't have a decent Parrying ability it's not nearly as good as it could be. WS (Parry) is a weakness for the Dev, which is why getting attacked 6 or more times a round by melee enemies will still leave him hurting.

The Tac IS an all-rounder because he can focus on whatever he wants to. He's not a god at melee but he has some abilities. It's like the Apothecary: everyone says he should be melee, and he has some melee Talents. But he doesn't get a second attack until Rank 6 - the exact same rank as the Tac. If you're judging melee ability purely by extra attacks/Reactions (which I agree are hugely important), then you can't say the Apothecary is any good at melee. If the Apothecary had better ranged abilities, I'd say he would be the best all-round character. But he doesn't, so I'd say the Tac is the most even.

If you have time to prepare for the Horde, great. But when a Horde of Genestealers charges you from the darkness or a Horde of rebels blows up a wall and opens up on you, wasting a Round switching ammo can prove fatal.

Siranui: Again, if you count out the Tac then there is not a character other than the Assault who can be considered good at melee. That's crazy. There's good at melee and then there's great. Great is where the Assault falls, with everyone else falling in behind him and the Dev bringing up the rear. The Librarian depends on what powers he takes, though he has the best damage-dealing ability with Force Weapons. I'd place him a firm second in melee ability.

Again, I think a +10% or more to attack and defend is pretty good. It's better than a +10% BS difference.

That's the point. The cost of melee stats is prohibitively high for the Dev, so he'll likely never take them. That helps keep him firmly in the back of the pack in melee abilities. The Tac can ignore melee to focus more on shooting or quickly add +10% or more to both WS and Agility after a few missions.

Double damage doesn't mean as much when there are other KT members doing 4 or 5 or even more Horde damage every round. If you were beating the other members by 50+, doing most of the damage by yourself, then it would be huge. As it is, the other SMs will be accounting for more than half of the Magnitude damage.

Unless you're running a long mission with a lot of Requisition, the Dev won't be able to afford picking up another Bolter with special ammo unless you ditch the special ammo for the HB and/or don't pick up any other equipment. Plus, if he takes a different heavy weapon, then that's fewer Req to take other stuff.

50 makes for clearer math. Nitpicking about a .5% seems a bit silly, no? Wait, so a 15% difference in BS is huge (at the high ends, even, where it actually means less?) but the same difference in WS means nothing? That's...I honestly don't even know what to say to that.

Again, stop getting caught up in the "x times" stuff. Yes, if character A has a 90% and B has 95%, then A will miss twice as much. That doesn't mean that much when both will be hitting practically every time. If we were talking about 40% and 70%, then it would be big.

You're forgetting something here. Space Marines ARE all rounders already. They have 30+2d10 in all stats.

Stalwart Defense is great because even if the Dev doesn't have a shitton of bonuses to Parry, he can attempt one per attack.

If he's attacked (and hit) 6 times, that means he will parry 3 attacks (let's say 50 WS because getting there isn't that hard), only being touched by 3, and reducing damage by 2 for each of the three. Of course, he'll be in deep **** be let's be honest, who wouldn't be with 6 attacks of Stealers in the face? Even with two more reactions, an Assault cannot fare better than the Dev in such a situation, the best he can is take the same damage +6.

As for the time spent for switching between rounds, that's highly situational, for sure, and may well be a weakness. Then again teamwork can help a bit here. And for those Req expenditures, think pooling ressources. If the mission seems to be ranged-heavy, it could be good to help the Dev by Req'ing a Lascannon (or whatever other heavy wpn he needs) for him, allowing him to use the HB against numerous enemies and the big fat Heavy weapon against the particular objective.

That is all about team tactics and PC strategies.

Stormast said:

True, I'm just saying that (of these all-rounders) the Tac is possibly the most balanced when looking at all of his abilities.

Stalwart Defense is great; you'll get no argument from me there. My point was that SD would be even better with a BS of 60 instead of 40 because of the increased number of successful parries. And considering it costs a FP, it's only logical that it be great. At best, it will be used two or three times a session. One interesting thought, and one that I've ruled yes on, is whether or not you can use a Demeanor to activate it instead. I like it because it allows for great cinematic scenes where the stoic Space Marine tries to hold out against overwhelming odds.

No one should come out of such a situation with multiple melee opponents unscratched. The Assault Marine will have a slightly worse defense (depending on number of Reactions and WS/Agi) but a far superior offense. With any luck, the Assault can drop one of those enemies before they swing, something the Dev really struggles to do. Of course, I don't think anyone is arguing that the Dev makes a better melee fighter.

If you run all sorts of different missions, it helps keep the team on their toes and prevents them from falling into the same tired routine. And you're absolutely right; teamwork and (especially) Squad Mode Abilities are game changers and can turn a deadly situation into a cakewalk. Their effects are just hard to definitively pin down because they're so situation-dependent.

Yeah, but then that's the PCs' job to think out of the box ^^'

And for SD, I'd say if the Dev has to use it three times in a game session then something's already odd

Stormast said:

Very true. A KT that just wants to shoot things won't get very far, at least in my games.

LOL Three times was the extreme range, since that's about an average FP count for most characters, I'd wager. I've never seen it happen more than once; maybe with a campaign featuring a lot of surprise ambushes in tight quarters or a particularly timid player it'd come up more, assuming FPs were used for nothing else.

Brand said:

I see Mighty Shot as very good in connection with the old ROF that I still use. It makes any weapon with a ROF >= 3 much better. A Tac doesn't usually have a WS 20 higher than his Dev buddy. 15 at most will be tpyical. And if he has rolled a lower WS, they might be equal even. I'd say no more than +10 on average.

Brand said:

Yes but he'll only have to parry those that hit, which will be 3 or 4 with melee oriented enemies. You can even give him a Chainsword for cheap for +10 to parry. Which means he'll take 1 or 2 hits. Without the expenditure of a Fate Point for reroll.

The Tac? He'll have a 60% of parrying one attack, maybe requiring Fate to parry that one. Leaving him with 2 or 3 hits that he cannot parry. Sucks to be him, I guess.

And I am not even mentioning Space Wolves Devs with Counter-attack which will outshine the Tac by a long shot.

Brand said:

And even if he throws all of his xp into melee , he'll still be teh suck and incapable at rank 3 to defeat the enemies his assault buddy is fighting. At Rank 3 the Assault has more than a fighting chance against a Nid Warrior. 3 attacks with the main hand, 1 attack with the off-hand, 2 parries. Hell yeah. The Tac? 1 attack and 1 parry or dodge. That sucks. It plain sucks. Go charging Stealth Suits instead.

Brand said:

Yeah and I have called for giving the Apo more love on more than one occasion here.

Brand said:

I can't say the Apo is good at melee. They are focussing on Bolters with special ammo or heavy weapons instead.

Brand said:

No, the truth is that the best all-rounder is the Librarian. And the most powerful specialty in general too but that's a different story. Apart from that there are no all-rounders without advanced specialties. If you want a true all-rounder, make a Dev and go Deathwatch Champion. You might want a starting WS of 45 for that though, so best pick a chapter that gives +5 WS.

Brand said:

If a horde of GS charges, I'll use the Kraken rounds and pray for the best. The trick is to not get charged by a horde of Genestealers.
A horde of rebels is typically not nearly as dangerous. I'd dive into cover and change ammo.

In both situations, I'd hope to have the right squad mode ability at hand.

Brand said:

The Librarian can. Because he can obliterate enemies with a single hit and gets Swift Attack at Rank 3. He also has abilities like Iron Arm that can help a lot in melee.

Oh, there is of course Tacticals like the Black Templar Tactical who can be very good in melee, especially if he has Tactical Expertise. Because with TE , his kill-team will agree with him triggering Holy Vengeance more often . But then again Holy Vengeance turns everyone in the KT into a god of melee.

Alex

With the old RoF, Mighty Shot was much better but really only with Bolt weapons; it doesn't do much if you primarily use the single-shot guns. A Tac can easily get +10 WS over the Dev just from advances. He's more likely to pick up better crafted melee weapons, especially if he's planning on being in melee much. Then there's Double Team which is outstanding if the team works together. I'd say a +10 WS advantage would be the minimum difference in Tac stats.

The Dev has to spend Fate to get those extra Parries, and on average he'll be blocking around half of the swings that come his way (base WS 40 + Balanced weapon). For a FP, yes, the Dev definitely has the better defense. Again, he's less likely to block or hit than a Tac, so he holds a defensive advantage for five Ranks while the Tac is still much more likely to hit. I don't see the Tac as the first-string melee fighter, but he's fantastic at playing a secondary role and ensuring that enemies use up their Reactions to let the others like the Assault swing freely (or even doing damage himself if someone else went first).

The Tac doesn't need to throw all of his XP into melee to pick up some nice boosts. Again, a secondary melee character but still alright. If you compare the Tac (supposedly a "shooty" character) to a Dev at Rank 3, he'd come up short, too. The combat specialists, Assault and Dev, wouldn't exactly be the best at what they do if others overshadowed them.

Agreed, the Apothecary needs a bit of love. That hasn't kept people from calling it a melee character. And, as you said, my Apothecary actually is the Heavy Weapon user of the party.

The Librarian is the most powerful, definitely, but I disagree that he's the most well-rounded because of the lack of ranged Talents. However, he's only great at melee if he's built that way (the same way his deadliness at range soars if he picks certain other powers). You could easily have a Rank 3 or 4 Librarian with 2 attacks but a bunch of powers like Astrotelepathy and Compel. The variation in powers goes a long way to determine his exact role. But, yes, he can be outstanding in melee if the player so chooses. It's just not as clear a path as, say, the Assault.

If only it were that easy. Maybe there's a secret command out there that makes Hordes of Genestealers stop charging. Maybe that's the secret in the Omega Vault... And, yes, Squad Mode is huge and can change everything.

Yeah, the ability to let everyone share your Squad Mode Ability is just deadly, and HV is a lifesaver in a melee. Try having a Storm Warden Tac who lets everyone get a free round in all major fights. That makes for some squished baddies in a hurry.

I beg your pardon for not reading the whole thing, but an idea came at me - What if a successful Disengage test meant that the character using it effectively 'Always Strikes Last' in the next round only? That would sove the initiative problem, where enemies are prevented from chasing (rather stupidly) because initiative means they sit there like a lemon.

that would then allow the attacker to either:

• Follow and punish the fool for trying to run away like a girl
• Be unable to follow as another opponent has engaged them in melee, and so must disengage themselves in order to attempt a follow

This allows for some interesting things, that actually make sense. Imagine the scenario:

2 marines V a single warrior. One disengages in order to fire, while the other keeps it tied up. The warrior can then either choose to remain fighting and let the marine escape, or try to pursue the fleeing marine, at which point both become striking last, where then Agilty bonus comes in to play. For the remaining marine, he can then charge the Warrior and get all the bonuses, while the other chaps commit their actions as they see fit. In this scenario, the pursuing marine would strike the warrior, who would then be engaged in melee again, and be forced to either attack the marine or disengage again.

This ruling gives huge weight to the side with superior numbers, who in truth, would be the only ones able to break away successfully without being run down.

thus then, if a marine decides to be a smart arse because he has Initiative 10, while his single opponent is lower and run away to shoot his heavy bolter at him, the opponent instantly is allowed to move first, and can thus charge him again, denying him a shot. Initiative is restored in the following round, meaning the marine can either run again like a pansy or fight in close combat.

any opinions on this guys? And also, I SEVERELY apologise if anyone thought of this already; it's late and I needed to type the idea up fast before i lost it amidst reading all the replies.