Brand said:

In the case of the whole party getting jumped, there's a lot to be said for those who are... I won't say inept, because we're talking WS of over 40 and +10 damage here... but less awesome at melee simply using the all out defence option in order to survive until the AMs have killed theirs and are available to help. That's the sensible option that uses good teamwork. If the Dev is too impatient to do so and is more interested in individual action that teamwork, then there's a price to be paid, just as AMs who rush off with a jetpack to go and kill stuff before the Dev has softened stuff up deserves a spanking! Likewise, if the Dev lacks the patience to wait and wants to step out and shoot, then I also think that there's a price to pay. Marines have the Patterns to represents their teamwork, and there's more to that than simply a mechanic for doing funky stuff with Cohesion: There's actual teamwork! I'm a massive fan of encouraging teamwork and good tactics, because one of the game themes is supposedly about building that teamwork. If players are always thinking of number 1 and it never hurts them, there is less incentive to work together.

In final sanction...really... if the Dev is pointman or tail-end Charlie then that's a bit of frankly poor tactics, and my mercy would be paper-thin! In close quarters with confirmed genestealers, any party with a bit of common sense has melee characters front and back, ready for just that kind of thing.

Stupid and selfish assault marines might like to keep everyone in melee so that they can get their +20, but decent ones would almost certainly want the Dev and other shooty types to be kept 'clean' so he can keep firing.

Coming into this discussion it seemed perfectly reasonable to allow the reaction to be used to parry a free hack. But the more it's discussed, the more I'm coming down on the side of 'no'. I'm also not keen on shooty characters basically abusing the ugo-igo initiative to run and gun their way out of melee, but aside from inventing other mechanics to deal with it, I'll probably just limit it purely by disallowing reactions against free hacks.

Okay, this is one of the issues I have and it irks me a bit when constantly hearing about how OP the Devastator is (Heavy Bolter, sure, Devastator, no). Looking just at the two extremes, the Dev and Assault Marine...

Scenario 1: The KT lands on a planet and hordes of rebel traitors try to gun them down. The team takes cover and opens fire. The Dev starts blasting away with the Heavy Bolter, a great weapon for killing Hordes. The Assault Marine COULD jetpack out there, but if he's smart he'll keep cover for a bit. He pulls out his bolter/bolt pistol and opens fire. He can do a bit of damage; size bonuses likely means he has little trouble hitting, too. If he took the right rounds, he can do a bit more damage than normal. He may not lead in damage but he can still have an impact. When things aren't so crazy, he blasts across the battlefield and tears into the nearest Horde.

Scenario 2: The KT is jumped by Genestealers while exploring a space hulk, ancient temple, etc. The Assault Marine gleefully starts trading blows with the nearest 'stealer; he's in his element, after all. The Devastator...goes turtle and waits for rescue, by your reasoning? How is that even remotely fair? There are definitely cases where the Dev will want to take a Full Defense action, but they should at least have the option to try something else. It wouldn't be such a big deal but by the book pistols are reduced to single fire only in melee. If the Bolt Pistol could be fired on Semi-Automatic, then it would be a different story.

I'm not looking at any of the Abilities (either Solo or Squad) because of several reasons. First, clearly, they're game-changers that ignore the normal rules. They make deadly SMs into demi-gods. They also won't always be available; maybe the KT doesn't have access to a certain ability, or is low on Cohesion, or they've been forced out of Squad Mode. I totally agree with you that teamwork is awesome and the players need to learn to use it to their advantage. But, sometimes the crap hits the fan and something unpredictable pops up.

For the record, I'm also comparing fairly low-level characters. Throw in stuff like Terminator Armor or Storm Shields and the game changes.

In the FS example, maybe there are reasons for the Dev to be in that situation. Maybe he's a helmetless Space Wolf and the team is relying on his senses and abilities to guide them. Maybe (as was the case in my game) the Apothecary and Tac were near death and only the Assault and Dev were healthy. The Assault Marine can't cover both the front and rear.

That's why I prefer the rules as they are. The Dev or anyone else can back up and fire if they're willing to take the consequences. Keep in mind that injured SMs probably won't risk it, especially against tougher melee opponents.

To defend oneself, the Dev may also have a little something (plasma/melta pistol for example), if he wants to blast into melee without having to back up.

I'd give him that, if he Req's it of course.

Stormast said:

Very true, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if it's a Melta Pistol or a Bolt Pistol. It's still just one shot, which any Genestealer will likely dodge. Then it's the Genestealer's turn, and with 3 attacks the Dev MIGHT dodge 1. Defensively, the Dev is better off keeping a Chainsword or other Balanced weapon to help him try to Parry. That's why I said it would be different if Pistols were allowed to take multiple shots; without multiple enemy Reactions, the Dev would still have a decent shot at being able to inflict damage. I don't think anyone would argue that being shot with a Bolt Pistol isn't nearly as bad as taking a Power Fist to the face.

Yeah, I do allow that. Especially since pistols don't have THAT much of a RoF anyway, it isn't be too killy.

Before I rant, I'll point out that I allow semi-auto with pistols in close combat. It's not a game-breaker and it makes sense. It opens 'gun fu' up as an option for everyone.

Brand said:

Fair? *pet hate rant incoming*

I can't stand it where a player selects a specialist becasue they're awesome and then whines like hell whenever they're specialism isn't at the fore. Like a sniper who whines that there's nowhere to snipe from when the party are crawling around in tunnels. If players take specialist characters they have to prepare themselves for the times when they're not the one in the limelight, and not the one doing all the killing. Sometimes that involves going fully defensive for like three whole round in the entire session. Cry me a river.

[While we're at it, players who whine because they have to take an entire turn out of combat so that the heal-bot can come and deal with their sucking chest wound annoy the hell outta me, too! Someone is playing a support character EVERY GODDAM ROUND for the good of the party. Have the decency to respect that and take a round out of your glory-seeking without whining!]

Teamwork means sometimes you're not the one getting the glory, and sometimes doing what you don't want to do. And one of the game's themes is supposed to be teamwork, so I'm a big one for encouraging the party to work as a team and put their own 'I wanna kill more stuffz than anyone else' agendas to the side. You work together or you die.

Devs are generally the guys who do most of the killing, most of the time. They get to tote around the big gun and be awesome. They deserve not to be awesome when caught with their pants down... but with decent teamwork that shouldn't happen, because other party members should be 'blocking' for them, just as they should be covering for the AMs.

Man, if I were a spacewolf crawling around genestealer-infested tunnels, my helmet would be ON! [although given their razor sharp quality, it's kinda moot. You might as well be in your pants. **** genestealers]

First of all, so true about Genestealers. They are quite nasty. And I'd kinda like to see a SW hunt down a genestealer in his pants; I'm sure any respectable SW character would be up for it.

*prepares return rant*

Try this little experiment. Give an Assault Marine a HB (or even a regular, non-errataed Bolter). Watch as he wipes the floor with everyone that comes near (like the Dev) because so many of the BS bonuses are tied into A) size bonuses and B) firing full-auto. If it's a regular ol' Bolter, he uses the Fire Selector and easily switches between Horde-killing rounds and Hive Tyrant-killing rounds That means the Assault Marine is only a little bit behind the Dev if he wants to blow crap up at range. If anything gets close, Quick Draw the chainsword and turn it into goo.

The Dev CAN'T do that. He doesn't magically get any extra attacks. Ranged attacks are based on an outside source, the weapon's RoF. Melee attacks are pure ability (I can't emphasize this point enough). This means that the Dev has no way of approaching the proficiency of a character like the Assault Marine while the Assault Marine is almost as good a shot as the Dev. That's pure BS, and I'm not talking Ballistic Skill. You talk about specialists, but the Assault Marine is the melee specialist and he doesn't have to cower in the corner when a firefight breaks out. Trying to hinder the Dev even more by not allowing him to back up and fire in melee (taking the consequence for doing so) just tilts the balance more in favor of the melee-focused characters.

I agree with you about the healing thing, but that's the player's issue and luckily it's not a problem I've had. And thankfully Apothecaries can still kill stuff since, again, everybody gets the awesome ranged bonuses.

Brand said:

Your analysis is not quite correct. The Dev will typically pour XP into raising BS, the Assault will not. The Dev will typically pour his req more into ranged weapons and supporting gear than the Assault.

The problem of the Dev is that most GMs stage their combat at fairly short ranges where his capabilites don't fully shine through. The greater the combat range, the more important the Dev becomes.

Alex

ak-73 said:

No, it's not. Look at the numbers. Let's assume starting Dev and Assault Marines with scores of 45 in any pertinent abilities. One quick, cheap raise for each leaves them with a score of 50 (BS for the Dev, WS for the Assault).

The highest bonus one can get is +60, and that's not overly hard with shooting at big things (much of the DW's enemies). Take a Magnitude 60 Horde (+40). With no other outside factors (Hatred, Codex abilities, etc.), the Dev has a target of 110 with a Heavy Bolter and the Assault Marine either 95 or 105 (depending on which weapon stats you use). I'll use the newer stats and assume the Bolter can only fire semi-auto, so 95. With average rolls of 50, both will hit with every bullet. The Assault Marine also can pick up a fire selector and switch ammo on the fly, making him more versatile. The Dev will do more damage, sure, but the point is that the Assault Marine is still very effective and can kill at range.

Turn it around. In melee, most of the bonuses come from abilities/Talents like Double Team, none of which the Devastator has apart from Stalwart Defense and a second attack allllll the way at Rank 8. The Dev might eventually pick up a WS advance, but they're so pricey he probably won't get more than one. That means that, unaided, his ability won't get above 50 barring outside help. WS is doubly important since it attacks and defends, meaning at best the Dev is running with a 60% chance to block (Balanced weapon). A second attack won't come until Rank 8, The Assault has 3 melee attacks by Rank 2 and an extra Dodge & Parry by Rank 6. He gets bonuses to attack from Talents like Double Team. The Dev can do a little damage in melee, but I don't think anyone would say he's very effective at it.

Both Specialties can do some damage. I'm not saying they can't. The gist of it is that, looking at the WS and BS masters, the Assault Marine far outclasses the Dev more at melee than the Dev outclasses the Assault at range, mostly because of the system where the number of ranged attacks depend on items and the number of melee attacks depends on abilities. Case in point - my group doesn't even have a Devastator any more. The KT just hands a heavy weapon to the Apothecary, and there has hardly been any drop in efficiency.

That's why I argue against making things harder for the Dev. They have enough knocks against them.

I can't speak for other GMs, but I always try to throw a mix of encounters at my group because it keeps things interesting and allows everyone to showcase their talents. Most of my fights have been at short to medium range but that's more a product of the environments and enemies. I haven't used the Tau yet, and I expect that'll change when I do.

Techmarines NEVER get Swit Attack, so stop complaining. Leave it to us, followers of the Omnissiah.

That said, the thing is, Devs are not RIDICULOUS in melee, as no Space Marine is. So of course they don't mince Stealers to tiny bits in melee, but if these same stealers come around in a subtle way, the Dev may well have an interest at having a good BS.

Plus your argument is quite moot, as what matters is not the chances of hitting. It's the difference between two characters.

And the Dev tends to be an awesome Big Baddie killer when he selects fat single shot Heavy Weapons and starts kicking his REAL talent lines, i.e. Called Shot enhancers and the likes.

Brand said:

First of all at higher ranks, you can typically expect Dev BS to hover in the 60s whereas the Assault's remains probably around 45, maybe 50.

Secondly, at range you get -10 or -30 to hit. Thirdly, for hordes I use different cover rules: I reduce horde size depending on how much they are exposed. They give the full size modifier when they are all visible out in the open.

So your mag 60 horde might actually give only +20 to hit and there might be -10 due to size. Firing on FA, the Dev gets thus 65 + 20 + 20 -10 + 10 (Motion Predictor) = 105. The Assault probably gets more like 45 + 20 + 20 - 10 = 75. That assumes the Assault even has req'd a weapon that can cause damage at those ranges.

Sometimes it's also inadvisable to charge for an Assault. Consider yourself being seiged by Tau. You can't go out and fight back, you'll be cut to pieces the moment you expose your left toe. Unless the Tau come in, you're cc skills are not of much use.

You are right in that other specialties, typically Apothecaries, Techmarines or Tacticals, do go Dev-style and requesition a Heavy weapon. However only the Tacs can keep up with the Devastator in dealing damage thanks to Storm of Iron or Mighty Shot. Mighty Shot is still good on a HB.

I agree that Devs are a bit problematic now but not as bad as you make it seem. DW is still primarily a shooting game and the Devs are the prime shooters.

Alex

Brand said:

Assuming the GM lets the AM walk around with a heavy bolter, of course.

I think that you're drastically underestimating the power of unrelenting dev, cheap BS and that big stack of shooting talents. Take a look at storm of iron (a talent that makes you twice as good at killing hordes), bolter drill, etc. And getting a HB for free, of course.

Incidental evidence points to it not being the AM who breaks scenarios, but the Dev. Time and time we've seen tales of them killing 'X' end of game encounter with a burst, or GM'ed instances where it happens. I find it hard to sympathise with a Dev in the rare instance that he's getting his butt kicked in melee, because -firstly- he's been out-killing everyone else up to that point, secondly; there's probably been a player screw-up that put him in melee, and thirdly; how often does it happen? Once a game session the poor Dev has to parry for two whole rounds? Man, if a player at my table started whining in that situation, I'd be grateful for the rules being hardback.

Stormast: Techs SHOULD have Swift Attack; it even suggests so in the Cybernetics section. Even without it, you get a potential second attack, insane durability, and all the cool tech toys and abilities that no one gets to play with.

Of course the chances of hitting are relevant. If the Assault Marine maxed at a 10% chance to land a melee attack, then clearly he wouldn't be as good of a fighter. And I did point out a lot of their differences, especially Talent-wise.

Again, anyone can tote around a Lascannon and do massive damage. Not everyone can cast Smite, dish out 3 melee attacks, or heal 20+ Wounds at a time.

ak: Raising BS higher just means the Dev will usually have a target number that much more above 100; that helps with the Heavy Bolter but doesn't mean much with a Lascannon. And the ranges of most weapons are pretty good; you'll only be taking negatives for ranges above Standard. Since most enemies have shorter-ranged weapons, especially Hordes, that means the group won't be taking many range negatives unless they all decided to use shotguns.

Interesting rule, but I haven't been arguing with house rules in mind. If I were, I'd be taking into account using Pistol-type weapons for multiple attacks and there wouldn't be as much of a problem since that makes the Dev far more capable in melee.

Sure, the Assault Marine shouldn't always charge in head-first; that's why it's so important that he can still fight effectively at range instead of sitting on the sidelines and twiddling his thumbs. With the base rules, the Dev (let's be honest here) sucks compared to your typical melee opponent, those whose first instinct isn't to keep at range and shoot. Genestealers eat them alive, and even the Tyranid Warrior is better. The Assault Marine doesn't suck at range. If he was limited to a single shot, it would be different. (Note that I'm definitely NOT advocating restricting the Assault Marine to 1 shot, this is just for comparison's sake)

DW is whatever the GM makes it. If every mission was to man a fortified bunker surrounded by open terrain, then yes. It would be a shooter's game and the Dev would rule. If the KT spends much of its time investigating ancient ruins and space hulks, then it's a different story.

Siranui: Unrelenting Devastation is the far inferior choice with the new errata. Bolter Drill is nice, but everyone complained that the other Heavy Weapons should be viable choices. That leaves the Lascannon-carrying Dev as getting one extra shot with his Bolt Pistol, a shot that as often as not won't even hit. Storm of Iron is great, sure, but it's not an early Talent and it's not unique to the Dev; the Assault Marine gets his own version of it in Whirlwind of Death.

What kind of enemies are you running? If the Dev was alone for two rounds against the Genestealer, and doesn't back up immediately to fire, he'll likely find himself on the ground, bleeding and down a Fate Point (plus maybe having spent another if he tried a Stalwart Defense and had some bad rolls). Your whole argument was that specialists should have limitations, so I'm guessing you'd be fine with a new rule that limited the Assault Marine (the melee specialist, after all) to only a single shot at range and no use of Heavy Weapons? (Again, not advocating this, just pointing out how crazy it is that only one specialty is so limited) After all, if Devs should need to be saved in melee, then shouldn't the reverse be true for Assault Marines and ranged combat?

If the GM runs a game where almost every fight is at long range, that's fine. Just don't complain that a specialty is so awesome when you're putting it in the sorts of situations where it shines. If every adventure was a space hulk crawl, people would be upset that someone else was too good like the Assault or Librarian.

I don't really see the Dev's speciality as limited when 80% of the game is about combat and he is the combat specialist who gets more kills than anyone else in the team!

@Brand

I have to ask, where is this notion that AMs carry heavy weapons come from? Are they allowed to carry heavy weapons and a jump pack in your game? Generally, there is no reason for them to carry anything heftier than a storm bolter as far as ranged weapons go. Yes, Dev's got it a bit rough with the latest errata, but its not the worst class, and they have their fun. Most other classes have better things to do than try and step on the Dev's specialty, and there generally is always a need for a heavy weapon.

I will say, not much has been done to help fix the Dev's need for flexibility past equipment selection. With the limit of 1 heavy weapon (usually), its just too hard to go with anything other than the HB.

As far as the rules of melee go and Devs, it is indeed the price they pay, and I would argue that its not so terrible. Everyone tosses out genestealer like its a standard enemy (and I guess it often is with that one module), but there are still plenty of other foes. At the end of the day, its on the GM to create a fun experience.

Brand said:

We understand that, I don't think we have that much of a problem with it. Shooting is the main part of a space marine's combat drill. Devs are those who stand out from the already high standards. Realistically speaking a kill-team will not pack more than one or two Lascannons. If it has a Dev chances are, he will be getting the Lascannon, if for no other reason that if somebody else would get it and miss a critical shot by 10 points or less, everybody would go: "If our Dev had taken the shot, he'd have hit."

The advantage of the Dev is: you get the heavy weapons. Yes, other people can take them too but you'll be the one who consistedly gets them, that has quite some appeal to players. You'll be carrying a major death dealer with you every emperor-damned mission.

Yes, your Assault Marine can do good damage in melee. And yes he is still a Space Marine and thus has damage capabilities in ranged too. But a single shot of my Lascannon will drop him like he's nothing.

Brand said:

Yes and no. I play a CF Dev with a Lascannon in PrimarchX's game. I can tell you that if I end up facing those Tau Hammerheads, I want my effective BS as close to 100% as possible. Right now I have a fatigue level, which gives me another -10.

It does get less important on higher level where you have signum link and the like. But I can tell you those Hammerheads hurt if they survive the two shots I can spring on them (1 standard attack and 1 by wasting my reaction on Fire For Effect, leaving me unable to dodge if I don't reliably kill it with two shots).

Brand said:

They can use two pistols in melee though:

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

Just can't use Swift Attack.

While we're on the subject of house rules: 40K RP lacks rules on negative modifiers for target speed. You can be sure that firing your Lascannon at a Hammerhead that is zooming around full speed will get a nice -20 or so from me.

Brand said:

The Nid warrior is also better than a rank 1 Assault in melee. He will have trouble with a Dev though, unless he can spring a surprise on them. And that's one of the problems with the Assault actually.

Brand said:

Every PC can die in 2 combat rounds with a Genestealer. All will have major trouble against a Nid Warrior or Genestealer. The Assault has a fighting chance against the Nid Warrior at higher ranks, the Librarian needs to survive long enough to have his Force weapon channel enough energy. The Techmarine does have his Servo-Arm but will die if he uses it. The Apothecary has less survivability than the Dev due to lack of Stalwart Defence. Same with the Tactical.

Only the Assault can fight back at higher levels and has a chance in ranged combat too.

But he's less useful against vehicles, he is less useful in killing hordes quickly, he is less useful against Hive Tyrants or Daemon Princes, unless he is sacrificing himself to buy the Dev more time to eliminate the enemy.

Brand said:

Unless the Dev was in Terminatour armour with Assault Cannon in hand. There is situations where the Assault is in his game. There is situations where it's up to the Dev with his heavy weapon to save the day. I'm fine with it.

Alex

Siranui: The Dev isn't the combat specialist. He's the ranged specialist. Everyone is a combat specialist, just in different ways.

KommisarK: My group no longer has a Dev. They are the most easily replaced Specialty in the game. With no Dev, it usually falls on the Apothecary to tote the heavy weapon since he tries to stay out of the heaviest fighting. The long range and extreme deadliness of Heavy Weapons means he gets a lot of kills. The only really significant drop was in killing Hordes, but with the new errata even that isn't as bad as it once was.

That's the point: anyone can destroy things at range, especially with a really big gun. Even the Assault Marine, if the mission calls for it*.

ak-73: Not if you can't hit the Assault Marine, and with all of the negatives you'll eventually get from trying to shoot an experienced Assault Marine jetpacking toward you, that's far from assured. And that's assuming the AM doesn't play it smart and take you by surprise, use terrain/cover, etc.

I don't doubt that those Hammerheads hurt. Since you were talking about experienced SMs, that's what I was looking at. Everyone wants the other Heavy Weapons to be viable (I'm fully in agreement here), but most of them are single-shot weapons. That means that a BS of 100 is just as good as a BS of 130. Experienced SMs will have bonuses like Range to possibly work with like starting characters but also pick up help from better equipment, Talents, etc.

Devs or anyone else carrying a Heavy Weapon can't use two pistols unless they plan on tossing their big ol' gun to the side. I don't think any self-respecting SM would dishonor his favorite weapon so.

I would probably just treat the Hammerhead as having Hard Target. It seems suitable.

Yes, Genestealers are just nasty. But I was responding directly to a comment that basically said there's nothing wrong with the Dev going turtle for two rounds until someone helps him. A Tyranid Warrior can dish out 6 attacks in 2 rounds (8 if it's a melee-oriented type). Genestealers get 8 attacks, too. Even going defensive, those aren't good odds for the Dev. Here's the rub, though.

It is very true that those enemies can take down anyone in the group, even the Assault Marine. The Dev's odds are by far the lowest though; he'll likely have the lowest WS, and many of the other SMs can have multiple attacks. I've seen a Librarian one-shot a Genestealer; Killing Strike + Force Sword can do crazy damage. Of all of the Specialties, Devs are the least likely to have a really powerful melee weapon, so trying to one-shot a melee enemy with a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist is probably not gonna happen. Also, even though I allow pistols to be fired on modes other than single shot, a Tyranid Warrior or other enemy can completely dodge a 3-round burst. They can't do the same to the AM's Lightning Strike.

And you're wrong about the Assault Marine. He can use his maneuverability to quickly attack where the armor is weakest (and I'll point out that none of the SM weapons just punch straight through the really heavily-armored stuff). Depending on the build, the AM can be the very best Horde-killer; nothing can match a Storm Warden AM for Horde damage. Against the big bosses, he can keep his distance and fire, and when things do get up close he is much better at dishing damage and surviving (thanks to two extra Reactions).

Actually, a Dev in Termie Armor will find himself shooting into melee a lot (and possibly shooting his fellow SMs). The AM in Termie Armor with an Assault Cannon (for really long shots) and a Chainfist will be squishing most anything he comes across. If you're throwing the team in Terminator Armor, then anyone can be devastating depending on how things are planned.

The Dev certainly can mess up an enemy, but (IMO) he needs more to separate him from Joe Space Marine that wanders by and grabs a HB. I haven't house-ruled it yet, but I think the class needs some early, cheap skills like Tactics (Armored) and Demolition to better represent what it's supposed to be.

Brand said:

About the lowest WS thingie: aren't you a bit hypocritical? You were arguing that the difference in BS between the Dev and the AM is not reeally high, making the AM a reasonnable shooter, but then you say that the difference in WS between a Dev and an AM is too high? I'd say you're nuts, sir.

Although the rest of your argumentation isn't completely off, and giving some funny crap to do to the Dev is important in order to give him something more than "being the deadliest in the team".

And don't forget: yes, the AM is deadly, even VS Hordes. But for the Big E's sake, he's in Melee with enemies, he has to find something rewarding to it! Charging a big fat enemy is dangerous for you, so if you utterly sucked at destroying it and would be better off hiding behind cover, why be an AM?

Stormast said:

There isn't a great deal of difference in stats, generally, with starting characters. That's what I was talking about when I said the AM and DM are very similar shooting--much of the bonuses for ranged comes from outside sources, not native ability. As they go up in Ranks, the DM will pick up +10, +20 more BS than the AM, who will have just as much of an advantage with WS. That doesn't mean a great deal when you're getting +10 for Range, +30 for Size, +20 for Full-Auto... Melee only picks up Size from those, and generally a +10 WS difference is a lot more important than a +10 BS difference (see below). The debate went from the starting characters to more in general, so that's why I've been talking about advanced abilities like the AM's multiple Reactions and greater ability differences.

WS is so much better to have than BS, mechanically, it isn't even close. It relies less on external bonuses and can be used to defend: hence the differences between WS 60 and WS 40 being more important than a 20-point spread in BS scores. That's key, since the two defensive stats, WS and Agi, are insanely pricey for the Dev. That's why he will likely have the worst defensive ability of anyone in the group and, back to the original point of this whole discussion, why it's so important that he can still back out of a melee and fire. It's kill-or-be-killed in DW. Taking away the ability of the Dev or anyone else to back up and take only one hit (instead of the 3 or 4 they might otherwise be facing) is a huge disadvantage for them since all of the enemies in DW are so deadly.

I'm all right with letting him do that (as I already stated), and even if you're right about WS, I wouldn't say it is that tragic to have a difference in WS compared to BS. +20 BS also means (in general) +2 hits...Especially with the example that was quoted before of an AM who takes heavy weapons. Even though that is stupid.

Of course there are bonuses, but the difference remains. And in fact, this difference in BS has been made even more valuable with the optional weapon stats (to get the best out of your bolter's burst you now need to score 4 DoS, which you usually don't do that easily when you're not getting too high...).

And yes the AM has more survivability in melee, especially when ranks go higher, but he spends his time in melee. So he better survive a bit. The Dev can take it more lightly (and focus on Agi/Dodge, since this works for Ranged and Melee attacks, is easier to boost without special stuff, etc, etc).

Stormast said:

I'm not saying it's tragic, but there is a big mechanical difference. The person buying BS is getting better at offense. The person buying WS is getting better at offense and defense. The AM shouldn't be taking heavy weapons, but sometimes the mission may call for it. I'm not saying that's a normal thing, I'm just saying that it can be done.

The new errata makes for greater difference, yes, but even with the new RoF changes, the Bolter still holds the edge in versatility, ammo consumption, and ease of use. A smart SM will be switching instantly between whatever round is best suited for the situation. Also, 4 DoS, while definitely not guaranteed, is still very doable with bigger enemies/Hordes. I've seen a lot of hits with all 4 shots from the old Bolters, and that takes 3 DoS.

The AM has far better survivability all around; he gets both an extra Dodge and Parry. The Dev who tries to raise Agi/WS will find himself being forced to save up the XP from multiple missions very quickly. The Techmarine falls into the same category as the Dev. Looking at pure abilities, they both have stat advances that total thousands of XP more than the other Specialties.

Again, the whole point of all this is that the Dev is not the unstoppable god of combat that so many make him out to be. Which leads back to the original point of this thread, which thankfully I think most of us are in agreement about.

Sorry for the typo, but -as you gathered- I meant *ranged* combat specialist.

I think that you are firstly drastically underestimating the power of all those ranged shooting talents. Sure: There's not a simple '+1 bonus attack' talent (well... apart from bolter drill and storm of iron...which pretty much do exactly that!), but there are a bunch of other things that makes Devs FAR more deadly with ranged weaponry than any AM could dream of. Before making any changes, I'd recommend running through them, listing them, and adding up all the effects. Remember that whenever using an automatic weapon, a '+20 to hit' or a countering of a -20 is equal to getting +2 attacks.

Secondly, I think your theoretical comparison between an AM and a Dev with a firearm totally ignores the realities of character building. By rank 3, the Dev will have spent his wargear talent and will have a +20 heavy weapon, and at least +10BS. The AM will instead have a custom melee weapon and won't have spent more than one advance in BS. The AM will invest in a targetting system and shooting talents. The Dev will be ignoring a bunch of shooting penalties. Critically, the Dev will be geared for ranged combat from the outset, too: If there's flexibility permitted, the Dev will have started with a high BS or point Chapter bonuses into it, and you can bet that the AM will -when picking armour histories- not be going for ones that make him shoot better.

In short, you're basing the AMs presumed effectiveness in ranged combat on flawed assumptions. If you look to the reality, you'll see just how much better the Dev is than the AM who just picks up the gun, and then your sympathy for the Dev in melee might evaporate a bit. Alternatively: Just run a game or two in open spaces and watch the Dev blow away everything that moves! Then you'll really be gunning for them!

Siranui said:

No worries. I make mistakes all the time; it's not unusual for my fingers and brain to be going at different speeds and things to get mixed up.

I'm not saying the Dev isn't the best shooter. That's pretty clear. Just that Heavy Weapons are so deadly that anyone can kill with them, even without all of those little Talents adding up. What I don't like is that those Talents are about all the Dev has. He's shoe-horned into this one thing that anyone can do (just not QUITE as well), which makes it the easiest Specialty to replace when running with a group not large enough for every Specialty to be taken (as in my case).

It's actually not theoretical. The Apothecary of my group has pretty much been the designated HW-carrier for a few sessions now (ever since the Dev went down to a Hive Tyrant - that Psychic Scream is just really bad for Iron Jaw-less Space Wolves), and there has been only a slight reduction in killing efficiency. He's basically a slightly-weaker Dev who comes with awesome healing and better melee abilities. Overall, the positives far outweigh the negatives. He starts with a fire selector-equipped Bolter and took a Power Sword as Signature Wargear. Depending on what sort of mission is coming, he'll usually spread his Req among a heavy weapon, special ammo, and/or the diagnostor helm, with changes based on the specific mission objectives and area. The biggest change was in killing Hordes, but that was with the old UD rule; under the new rule, there likely won't be as much of a difference.

Oh, open spaces = death for most DW opponents, especially if there's a Dev in the group. I'm well aware how deadly the Dev is in those situations, which is why I wonder if those scenarios are all that some people use the way they talk about every fight being a one-round killfest.

If you feel bad for the Dev only having some shooting talents, then take a look at the Tac: They get theirs later, and don't even get a heavy weapon to play with! For me they are the most replaceable team members, and totally mooted by ultramarines in general.

For me, DW is mostly about combat, shooting is by far the largest part of combat, and Devs are better at it than anyone else. To specialise in the thing that the game is mostly about is more than enough of a niche, just as I wouldn't feel too bad about an Ars Magica player absolutely sucking at anything non-magical. Being 90% devoted to 60% of the game (Dev) beats being 75% devoted to 10% of the game (Tech/Apo), or indeed 90% devoted to 30% of the game (AM).

Indeed; anyone can use a heavy weapon, assuming that the GM is indeed happy to let assault marines and other non-Devs requisition heavy weapons. Remember that Dev isn't what the PC was before the Deathwatch, but the role that a character has elected to take within the Deathwatch. So a Tac who always carries a heavy weapon... shouldn't be. They should be playing a Dev. And there's still a large difference to my mind. Your Apo is 'defaulting' to flat BS, without any advantage of talents. If he was stood next to a Dev of similar XP, then the difference will start to show, especially later in the game.

Hmm... Apo with 50BS and a HB versus a Dev:

Apo is autofiring at a +20 Horde and so has a skill of 90. He's going to hit with 3.9 shells. 4.9 horde damage all told.

Our Dev is going to have a BS of 60 and will easily hit the skill cap modifier of +60, thanks to his custom wargear and other stuff. He's going to hit with 6 on average, with Bolter Drill. Doubled for SoI and then +1d5 for UD and the +1 for explosive again and we're looking at 15.5 horde damage. Three times as effective. Now I don't know about you, but about half my fights are against hordes, so the Dev is three times more effective 50% of the time!

Against a single target that's partly obscured, at range or covered and -20 to hit, it's a similar tale. Whereas the Apo with a las-cannon who snap-aims will be looking at a 40% hit chance, the Dev can ignore penalties for called shots or range and still probably garner at least a +40 bonus (custom wargear, targetting), to have an effective skill of 100. So even if your GM is a big meany and considers 91-00 a failure, the Dev is still hitting 90% of the time, compared to the Apo's 40%.

The thing is, when a Dev could one-round-full-auto-kill a Hive Tyrant, it didn't really matter if the beast was in the open.

At the moment the Tyrant can be seen (and please don't tell me he should be stealthy, a Tyrant is like a whole battalion of tanks), he takes a full volley of Heavy Bolter and cries to his mom. That's the problem of the "one round killfest".

That aside, I agree that the GM has to act with some tactics as well and not go crying as soon as a Lictor who was dancing in the middle of the street gets blamm'd. But there should be a middle ground here, between one round killfests and ninja techniques used on Necron Monoliths. I hope there is, at least