Two quick questions that I'm struggling to find an answer to in the handbook. Any help would be appreciated!

1 - What are the rules regarding moving away from melee combat. At the moment my squishy Fire Warriors are getting minced in melee and I'd very much like them to run the hell away.

2 - kinda linked to the previous question, can you fire ranged weapons while adjacent to an enemy? I know there's a bonus to firing point blank, but does that include being adjacent?

Cheers!

Josh.

JayCat said:

If you break out of hand to hand combat the opponent(s) you're engaged with all get to hit you in the back as you run away. You can use the disengage combat manuver to get out of hand to hand without incurring that penalty, however you won't get very far, especially from a Jump Pack wearing Marine.

JayCat said:

Adjacent to what? The rules just state you have to be 'within' a certain range to get a point blank bonus. There are no hard or fast rules as to when you're engaged in hand to hand combat, and provided you're not in hand to hand you get the point blank bonus.

For me, I tend to just make sure I describe the consequences of the PC/NPC actions and whether or not the result will be someone being locked in melee- that way my players don't throw stuff in be because they're surprised that they can only use pistols and swords.

Quite frankly, the book isn't so clear (at least on page 247) about when your character is engaged in melee. It states that the attacking character is adjacent to his target, not to any old enemy. By this page, a marine could attack a target 30 meters away while standing next to another enemy-- because he isn't attacking the enemy adjacent to him, he isn't in melee with it, since it isn't his target. This doesn't make sense, but it appears to be possible by the rules on page 247. So where is the errata? Or is there another page that lays out the rules differently?

There was some discussion on this here: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=212&efcid=3&efidt=444073

Furthermore, what is "adjacent"? I'm inclined to say: "within 1 meter", but when we're dealing with hulking & enormous characters, each with claws or swords possibly over 4 feet long, maybe melee is within 2 meters? On 1m x 1m a grid, that will look weird. Perhaps a house rule that fixes this? Allow a one-1m step as a free action?

If you look at it from a frame of reference that everyone is continuously acting and not waiting, then your marine can indeed be shooting someone else because he's busy shooting as the enemey runs up to engage him in melee. It gets wierd for sure if you look at it strictly from a turn based perspective.

As for being adjacent, I'm personally not seeing this as enough of an issue in my games to create a hard/fast rule, I just say if someone is within 'reach' of their hand to hand weapon systems you're in melee- sometimes that's a lot further than 1m. I wouldn't worry about the grid/map, and I'd worry even less about it looking 'wierd.' Then again, some people prefer the grid, so take this with a grain of salt

Well, the guy standing next to you might not be YOUR target, but if you are HIS target then you are indeed engaged in melee.

It takes two to tango, after all

The acrobatics skill can be used to disengage as a half action with a challenging test. Thankfully my players haven't found this yet so I don't have to cope with the silliness of a devastator backflipping out of combat and opening up on the guy that was engaging him!

telagos said:

To fire full atuo as a half action would require a suspensor, though they could still fire things like missle launchers and plasma canons. If it were me, I would give said devestator penalties to his acrobatics roll due to the bulk of his equipment.

And you also have the gate of it being an elite advance for most characters.

cheers for the help, that answered my question. As per my use of the word 'adjacent' i have to admit my pcs would rather use a squared board to play, since we're all new to DW, and we're all D&D players so adjacent is in regards to squares. Hopefully soon I can ween em off that and onto a proper board.

cheers again!

Charmander said:

That won't stop anyone using a krak grenade though. And with things like the Regroup squad mode ability it gets worse. You use it to get out of combat, possibly inviting a free hack, sure, but then you can pepper the enemy point blank with a hail of bolts.

Question: can you use a Reaction to counter a free hack?

Alex

ak-73 said:

If someone uses Regroup on you outside your turn, you could use a Reaction to counter a free hack.

Danmation said:

Actually the book is fairly clear. It states on page 241 under the move action, "If the active character ends his movement adjacent to an opponent, he may engage that opponent in melee." Meaning once a character is close enough to make a melee attack all he needs to do to engage a model is say he's engaged. Even if the character can not or chooses not to attack that turn he may choose to engage any model he can conceivably attack.

As per the OP, Once you are engaged in melee you MAY NOT make any attack actions other than those with the melee subtype. So if a heretic ran up to you and your GM decided the heretic engaged you once he was within melee range (even if he doesn't attack you) you can not fire any weapon other than a pistol (on single shot) at him, nor may you fire any ranged weapon at any other target. Nor do you benefit from point blank range (as per the rules for using pistols in melee). Once engaged you may only use melee attack actions.

Danmation said:

If someone is beside someone and is involved in a fight they are engaged. However, characters don't have Zones of Control (or at least there is never any mention of them) so you can run past someone freely if you don't start beside them, and don't suffer any "attacks of opportunities". It would also seem that if two enemies are standing next to each other and both are shooting at someone not involved they are not engaged. However this seems like a situation that will never come up. Those who are going to shoot are rarely going to choose to get that close to an enemy, so it is likely one will have chosen to engage in hand to hand combat.

HDaniel said:

Let me rephrase: if I move out of melee and the other gets a free hack - can I try to dodge or parry?

Alex

I don't see why not in many ways. Per RAW you might meet complaint, in using a reaction in your own turn. But logically it doesn't seem problematic.

Game-wise, though it might set an ugly precedent: The Dev casually wandering two yards away from a bloodthirster, using a dodge against the free hack and then cutting loose and demanding point blank modifiers *is* a problem because:

1) Bloodthirsters can reach more than 1 yard. The definition of 'in melee' as being standing 1 yard away seems massively contrived and false. Heck: I wouldn't drop my guard to a Space Marine within about 15 feet, because I'm pretty sure that distance could *easily* be covered with a lunge!

2) It wouldn't just stand there: It'd take a few paces after you, but the initiative system can't handle that. I'm not a fan of introducing rules that work in system but make no sense in reality.

3) It breaks suspension of disbelief because it's so clearly stupid.

4) It's kinda screwy balance-wise. It pretty much negates the disadvantage of a shooter being stuck in melee.

Siranui said:

Special rule: Lightning Attack allows 2 free hacks. Will make any Dev reconsider and will make the really scary creatures appropriately scary.

Alex

ak-73 said:

No way. Devs already lost the title of Horde-killer to the Assault Marine and have had their firepower reduced; other heavy weapons went up, sure, but their pistol was weakened, too. Since so many melee-based enemies have Lightning Attack already, you're basically saying the Dev is dead as soon as an enemy gets close. No matter how smart and lucky a player is, that's gonna happen sooner or later. As it is, the Dev really only has two viable options until they get the really cool gear: pop Stalwart Defense and pray for rescue or take a step (and one attack from the enemy) and open up with whatever heavy weapon is available. A Tyranid Warrior can seriously hurt a SM with one hit; two free hits means the Dev is likely dead or horribly mangled. It also makes the Blood Angel Dev the only viable Chapter since they can dance out of combat with Acrobatics (taking no attacks) and any other Chapter will get chewed up. The BA Dev + Suspensor = lots of dead melee enemies as it is.

If anything, the best idea might be giving creatures an increased threatened (melee) area based on characteristics or size. That would let the Massive Hive Tyrant make melee attacks against opponents that weren't right next to it (which seems logical). But then that opens the can of worms from D&D where you have to deal with characters moving through threatened areas and could make it so Assault Marines can't even effectively close with bigger enemies. I'm not so sure there is really a perfect solution.

I'd say this "threatening" reach only applies to getting out of melee: if you can't get away from the enemy with your AGI bonus (standard movement), then you haven't gotten away (cause clearly, once the horrible Tyrant has you...).

One way to modelize that is to treat all characters (PCs and NPCs) as only occupying one square, but bigger size ones (I'm looking at you, Big Phat Tyrant!) having a "zone" bigger than this. So when the Tyrant (or Bloodthirster) has come into melee with the Dev, his "zone" covers like 2 or 3 squares behind: the Dev can't get away, even while taking a free hack. Role play speaking, that illustrates the fact that the horrible beast has reached him and began to hit him with everything it has. Trying to get away is quite futile in those cases: cue Stalwart Defense!

I'm not for the two attacks with Lightning Attacks, but I'm in favor of forbidding Reactions during one's turn: it does not obviously make sense (though one could always advocate that...), but I think it is coherent. You're allowed to disengage but you have to eat an attack (assuming the guy in front of you hits, this is only 75% chance in general ). Or you can try your Acrobatics throw if you want, if you can. The choice is yours, you know. You can be a ***** and flee, or be a REAL MAN and FACE IT

Stormast said:

I like the idea of keeping the "threat" distance for escape, and maybe for a few special circumstances - if you're separated from the Tyrant by something (maybe a half-closed hatch), you don't walk up close to it and blow a raspberry or it'll smack ya. I'm all for keeping bigger nasties like that harder to escape from. It makes sense and fits in with how dangerous they're supposed to be. Like you said, those are the situations where Stalwart Defense should be used to face down the vile Xenos.

Using Reactions to defend yourself while leaving melee makes sense to me, but the book explicitly states that Reactions are reserved for when it's not the player's turn. I wouldn't mind seeing that little rule changed, but I can see the benefit of keeping it.

Brand said:

The alternative is of course to do a proper 'full withdrawal' thing.

You're basically saying that -in a free flowing melee- a Dev should be able to turn his back, scuttle away 6 feet, turn and fire at +20 at the genestealer who has taken a swing at the retreating back and then elected to stand there like a lemon and get shot. The reality is of course that the genestealer would still be on top of the marine, all claws and bad breath. We all know that big guns = Win in this game, but I rather like the 'except in melee, and then you're in trouble' caveat.

A Free Hack is 'punishment' for trying to do the clearly crazy thing of turning your back and running away from combat, to the extent that players are encouraged to use the withdrawal rules (and sacrifice an action), or to instead rely on teamwork to solve the problem. I'd rather not see players cheerfully start accepting the free hack because it was a better option than the other two solutions.

Call me old-fashioned, but when the guy with the heavy weapon gets jumped and can't handle it, I don't want the cinematic feel of games damaged by a quick manipulation of the rules and a burst of heavy bolter fire. I want to see a bit of drama, as they either have to duck and weave out of combat in order to position for a shot next round (withdrawal), or for them to be saved by someone else.

I don't use a grid, but I'd certainly consider that any character NOT full withdrawing and electing to instead just run like the blazes might get followed and hacked down, so long as the critter wasn't already in melee with another party and had a Agi/move higher than the marine. I might 'charge' them a half-action in their next turn for electing to 'persue', but I think it should be an option, in order to discourage 'flee and shoot' tactics and manipulation of the turn-based nature of combat, in the face of genestealers.

Siranui said:

Who says you have to turn your back to leave melee? I certainly don't remember anything about it in the book, and it seems silly to suggest that a SM can't simply make a Half Move (taking a few steps back) and accept the consequences. Even a single swipe from a Genestealer can ruin a SM's day, especially if he's already wounded (which, having been in melee with a Genestealer, seems quite likely). Also, keep in mind that the Dev, or anyone else, can only go full-auto if they have a Suspensor or some other way to fire more than one shot as a Half-Action.

You mention the "full withdrawal" option, but apart from a few rare instances that's really not an option for most. The Dev (or other character) takes a Full Action for a Half-Move. He's done. The Genestealer takes a few steps and uses a Standard Attack. Repeat until you have one dead Space Marine. Again, this leaves Blood Angels insanely better than others. The BA Dev escapes as a Half-Action and is free to fire at will. With the HB, he needs a Suspensor. With a Lascannon, he just grins and pulls the trigger. By using the RAW, all characters can escape from melee. It's just that the characters without Acrobatics have to pay the price of a free hit, and if they don't kill their opponents they'll find themselves right back in melee the next round.

Personally, I find the image of the Devastator taking a claw to the face as he steps back and opens up with "Ol' Painless" to be perfectly cinematic.

Full withdrawal would be carefully backing away from melee. Just moving out of melee and provoking that 'free hack' is intrinsically letting your guard down and prioritising movement. That might involve turning tail, and it might not, but it does infer a certain lack of defence against things.

I completely agree that just withdrawing and getting chased would be a horribly suicidal situation. That's why marines work in teams, to my mind: So their buddies can help them out of a suicidal situation.

Siranui said:

True, but I don't think I've yet seen (or run) an encounter that called for a single Genestealer to attack an entire KT. The Dev may want his Assault buddy to help him out, but if the Assault Marine is dealing with one or two of his own opponents he won't be much immediate help. Other things can cause issues. For example, the section of Final Sanction where the KT travels through the pipes and the valves seal off one member to be jumped by Genestealers. The SM may have to fight solo for up to 3 rounds before help can get to him. If the Dev gets caught in that situation and can't move, he has little chance of survival.

And as for the "full withdrawal" vs. "just moving" - that's exactly how the book handles it. Just moving back to shoot, you can't use a Reaction since it's your turn. That's the price you have to pay for (hopefully) gunning down your enemy. Being defensive and disengaging means you protect yourself, at least for a short time. I've mostly seen that it's best used for a SM to move out of the way so that another KT member can gun down the attacker without the penalty for shooting into combat. Melee fighters like the Assault Marine usually prefer to keep everybody in melee so that they can take advantage of Talents like Double Team.

Brand said:

And all this sounds quite reasonable to me. You have choices. None are really cool by themselves (but hey, if you want to escape melee...Your call !), but they make sense. Of course, taking a free hack means you feel tough and want to take your chance. That's what I call nerves, buddy !

Stormast said:

I can just imagine the SM turning his head and saying, "Take your best shot," to the Genestealer as he levels his Multi-melta and backs up.

Man, if one of my players does that, not only has he won an Interwebz, but also some reward