Now I see in the news feed that TI is getting another expansion.

Come on FF, continue the RuneWars franchise in a true expansion. I'm not talking about limited figures and cards from special events or by purchasing other titles. I want an honest to goodness big box expansion with new races, new heroes, new season cards, new tactic cards, new rewards, new tiles, new quests, and rules to increase the number of players.

If any of your games deserve this treatment, it's RW. Chop chop! Post haste! Tout suite!

Chaos in the Old World and Twilight Imperium have shown us that FFG doesn't announce all expansions any more. (Maybe they want to surprise us, maybe they are just tired hearing the question "when will it be finished?")

So I would not exclude that they're working on an expansion right now.

I'd love to see an RW expansion as much as the next person, but I'm much more excited by a TI3 expansion, I have to say. Also, as their flagship game, the one that got the whole company going, I think it's fair to say that if ANY game deserves a new expansion, it's Twilight Imperium. =P

I suspect that if anything is holding up an RW expansion, it's finding things the game needs. FFG is not a company who generally releases an expansion that's just "more of the same." They release expansions that add something. New rules, new variants, new mechanics. New races and new cards too, of course, but not just that. And I think that's a good thing. Expansions should add something of value to a game, instead of just "more."

I wouldn't take the fact that TI3 just got an expansion announced an RW didn't as a sign or anything, either TI3's last expansion was over FOUR YEARS ago. Runewars is barely a year old

And, like the above posters said, it seems FFG's policies lately have been to NOT announce things too far in advance. Thus, I would think that if a RW expansion is made, it will be shortly before it's release - which means that it COULD be in progress right now (and even nearly done, for all we know). The lack of news doesn't mean it's not happening, necessarily.

I'd like to see a Runewars expansion as much as anyone. However, I think RW is a complete, AWESOME game on it's own, and if it never gets one, oh well.

A new thing is a good thing. I would welcome a quality RuneWars expansion, even though I do not yet own the base game.

Maybe I need to add RuneWars to my library. Maybe if I was invited to more RuneWars sessions in the CO area...

As much as I would love a Runewars expansion I am more excited about the one for Twilight Imperium, and I'm glad they put their time and effort into that. Now, if we were to also get an expansion for this game that would be icing on the cake.

I'm sure Runewars will get an expansion. When? Dunno. Maybe it's already scheduled and we don't know. It's a good idea to withhold the news of a new launch till the time is right. You'd want to have the hype at it's peak when the product hits the shelves. I like it. I want to be surprised.

Seren said:

I'll invite you to the next one I have I wasn't sure if there was interest, as when I brought it to that one TI3 event I wasn't sure if you and The Black Scourge liked it Now that I know, I'll let you know!

My dream is two new races with influence/tactics = 0/5 and 5/0

First of all I must say I've never played Runewars. Still, one of the main things that keeps me from investing money and time in RW is the fact that it is "just" a four player game. The four player game slot is very saturated with amazing games, more coming every month. When having a game night with four we have a lot of games to choose from from Mansions of Madness to Chaos in the Old World to even Earth Reborn or four player Warhammer: Invasion (it can be done).

The slot I see Runewars would fill for us is a big conquest game in the place of our good old favourite A Game of Thrones. AGoT is an amazing six player game, but it would be great to have some other one too. On a week nights we don't normally have more than four players, so this is not a problem, but for weekend game extravaganza we do normally have six players and it would be great to have one more deep and a bit more complex six player game in addition to AGoT and Galactica. Something where preferably it is everyone against everyone as in the long run keeper vs. players thing doesn't offer us as much fun (for example six player "houseruled" Descent).

Runewars looks amazing, but before it can be expanded to five and six players I'm not touching it.

(Steve O - you mentioned Twilight Imperium. After reading the games I mentioned above (which my group enjoys) (Full list being: AGoT, Galactica, Chaos in the Old World, Mansions of Madness, Descent (which is too long!!!) and War of the Ring) do you think our group would enjoy Twilight Imperium (especially with six players)? Somehow the setting doesn't do it for me (and it looks a bit plain to be honest), but if the game itself is superdupervupergood we might give it a try...

So what I was trying to say is +1 to the request of Runewars expansion as long as it brings five and six player variables to the game. Thanks.

I like the idea of a 5-6 player Runewars expansion as well.

As to Twilight Imperium being good, sheesh, it's my all time favorite after 30 years of playing every game under the sun.

I'm not sure what you mean by plain looking---are you talking about the cover art? I don't find it plain looking; it has all sorts of various chits and bits to support options in the game and provide accounting for various space-borne or planetary forces. As a production, I think it's very well done with a rather articulate back-story, high-quality oversized hexagon tiles, cool plastic ships, and very heavy cards.

If your group thinks Descent is too long, and I know that Descent can sometimes take a boisterous, social game group upwards of 12 hours, then you may think the same about Twilight Imperium. However, TI3 with the Shattered Empires expansion makes for a very deep, highly repeatable gaming experience ideal for six players. Your group should definitely try it out.

Mordjinn said:

If you think Descent is too long, stay far away from TI3. =P

Twilight Imperium is a fantastic, epic game that covers every aspect of galactic domination, from combat to politics to economy and back again. It has a rich backplot with a decent chunk of fluff for each race. Although many of the races can be boiled down to common archetypes, they each have their own flavour that should not (IMHO) be discounted as irrelevant (although I've certainly known some people who did.)

That said, it also takes a good long time to play. Especially if you're all or mostly newbies. It's a lot of rules to take in. It's a lot of bits to manage. It's a lot of choices to make in terms of how you will go about trying to conquer the galaxy. It's also an experience you don't quickly forget (for good or for ill.)

If there's any part of you that enjoys sci-fi and games of conquest, you WILL enjoy Twilight Imperium. But if the play time is a factor for you, it should be noted that it's a BIG factor in this game.

I would dig a Rune Wars Expansion. As long as it is done right. I really think it is just such an excellent game.

I cannot remember where the quote was posted but someone asked about a RW expansion at the last Realms event. The answer directly from the designer was that the game is COMPLETE. Chance of an expansion are slim to none at this point although you know FFG can always change their mind.

Personally i think the game has major issues to begin with. It really could use an expansion to add two more players and rebalance the game. Certain aspects just feel unfinished and useless while others are way to important to dismiss for a season or two..

Baenre said:

That quote was from the BGG forums from several months ago, someone had asked Corey, and that was the response. To be honest, the answer is completely useless. Of COURSE the game is "complete" - they wouldn't release the game if they had obvious holes they wanted to fill. Expansions aren't meant to "complete" games, but rather EXPAND them, make MORE (though sometimes they also use them to fix problems, but that's never the primary motivation). When Twilight Imperium, 3rd Edition was released, it, too, was "complete". Yet it had an expansion a little over a year later, and then another one due to come out soon.

I think Corey's answer was just a diplomatic way of saying "that's not information we are sharing" - it doesn't mean that there will be or won't be an expansion at all.

Baenre said:

I guess this is a matter of taste. I don't think the game has any "major" issues. Perhaps a few minor ones, but nothing that takes away from the enjoyability of the game. I'm curious as to which aspects you feel are unfinished?

I was the one that ask Corey. I don't want to stir the nest ... again, but based on more replies that followed, he is done with Runewars. However another dev could pick it up to make an expansion as Corey did for Twilight Imperium.

At the time I was asked by Corey to make more articles and scenarios for the Warcraft Adventure Game. We talked as one dev to another and not fan to designer.

My exact question was something along the lines of. "So when are the dwarves and orcs coming to the game. Then I ask if FFG holds back content for economic and future revenue and how it is decided on what to cut."

I won't talk about the FFG business answer he gave. As for whether the dunwarr dwarves or zul orcs will be added he replied just that way. "I feel the game is complete."

Take that for what it is and make whatever hope/sense you want out of it.

Regardless, I think those responses are simply diplomatic empty talk. Regardless of whether an expansion is in the works or not, Corey's answer would be exactly the same - considering FFG's policy of late of being quiet about such things until they are practically on the boat, it's the only answer he CAN give.

Sure, maybe like you suggest if an expansion does come, it won't be by Corey. But maybe it will, down the road, if he gets a really good idea. I think the main point is "When we designed Runewars, we didn't leave anything out for later release"; ie, any expansion will be new stuff (if one ever does come).

For years, people had been bugging FFG about another Twilight Imperium expansion, and the response was roughly the same... yet another one is on it's way

But just to be clear, I'm not saying your assessment is wrong at all; I really don't know. I just think that they answer Corey gave you is the only answer he COULD give you

Only time will tell. That is all I can say.

Do I hope for another expansion? Not really. I personally found too many flaws in the fluff to overcome the well designed mechanics. Also the new group I game with prefers games that don't take long too setup. Such as Cosmic Encounter, Talisman, Yomi, etc.

Runewars was honestly a mind scratch for me pretty much from the start of the previews. But a couple easy rule changes make it the game I wanted it to be so it is no biggie.

Curator said:

Never played Talisman or Yomi myself, but recently I've never had a game of Runewars take longer than 5-10 minutes to set up when the players know what they are doing.

I will preface everything I post further on with a statement that FFG is my favorite board game company, with the very best games BUT...

Did anyone else feel a little ripped of by RuneWars? I think the game should have been made with 6 factions from the start. Dwarves and Orcs should have been in that box in addition to the other 4. This would have given us 2 Neutral factions, and a much larger set of options to keep play from become stale. I've been with the Runewars universe since it was Battlemist. I played and collected Diskwars, and have bought most of the games in that world that have come from then to now. And for the first time, I feel milked.

I understand that expansions help drive profits and keep the company afloat to create more and better games. I accept that and don't complain when any game gets more expansions or revamps or new edition or special limited edition figures. I buy most of these things at my local retailer in Boston (the Compleat Strategist if anyone cares), and have already preordered the TI3 expansion from them.

But seriously. 4 Factions? It could have killed you to do 6 and give us the classic factions from Battlemist? Hell, you have expansion races past those 2 from DiskWars, in the form of Demons and Dragonmen, just to name 2 (there are others).

Seriously, it was like getting a third less factions in TI. No one wants that. We want more choices and more variety. Why are we screwed out of that? And I would have even forgiven that, if the expansion came out quickly, but no, we're waiting too damned long for it.

If anyone in charge of anything is reading these forums, lodge this complaint.

Taki said:

I'd like to see dwarves and orcs as much as the next guy, but I think you're overreacting a bit here. The game is fine and complete as it is. If they had deliberately withheld anything for an expansion, I'm reasonably certain we would've seen that expansion by now (or at least an announcement thereof.) If they decide to make one because of fan demand, it might reasonably still be coming down the pipe, but that's a very different situation from doing it "on purpose."

The mechanics in Runewars remind me very much of TI3 with one notable trend in difference - it aims to cut down play time. The options are simplified, the gameplay streamlined and the number of players limited, all in the name of creating a conquest and control game which doesn't take 8 hours to play. I was initially put off by the fact that it was only four players, as obviously were you, and I'm sure it hurt Corey to limit himself to that number as well, but it was done for a very specific reason. For what it's worth, I think that goal has been achieved.

If FFG ever deigns to release an expansion, I will be happy to hear of it. If said expansion does in fact include dwarves and orcs (keep in mind that every last droplet of information about these races as part of Runewars has been suggested by fans, not FFG) then I will be even happier. If such an expansion never comes to pass, there's already a kickass dwarf homebrew over on BGG, and I hope to see (or eventually make for myself) a similar orc faction.

Ah Steve-O, ever the voice of reason. I usually agree with you, and though temperance and moderation are usually good messages, the title of this thread is "rant! etc..." This is just the rant that I've had since the game came out. Does it work as is? Yes. Did they cut out material? Yes. Would it have been easy to include? Yes. Why did they do it? To milk the IP.

Look, I love Fantasy Flight, and I basically hand them money every time they make a game. This does not give them license to milk me over it. And I don't want it to continue in the future, so what else am I to do but demand the expansion and make a stink about the direction they've taken. I want to support the company, but I also want them to listen and make the product I'm asking for.

You assume they deliberately "cut" something out of the game, just to include in an expansion... yet no proof You claim they do this just to milk you... again, with no proof I doubt they did either, to be honest. But assuming they DID cut stuff out, it was probably to reduce the cost of the game. More components means higher prices. Let's say they did have 2 more factions to include. That could have possibly raised the price of the game by $10 or $20, simply for the components. Profit margins on these types of games, from what I understand, is pretty slim. Sure, they make money off it, but if they weren't, they wouldn't be in business at all.

My guess is with most of the expansion games, the core game was built as such to keep the price reasonable, and to see how well it would do. If it sells well, expansions are made. If they had to trim stuff out to keep the costs down, those could be added. But sometimes, new stuff is added that wasn't even IN the original concept, but simply to give the fans more of what they like.

I very much doubt that FFG deliberately withholds stuff from a game just to "milk" it in an expansion.

Actually, not to put to fine a point on it, I did, subtly, offer proof. Through logic and rhetoric, history and experience I make those claims. Since failure to communicate an idea is ever the fault of the speaker, I'll try again. Runewars is the ancestor and successor to Battlemist, set in the world of Terrinoth, which is the setting of Diskwars, Decent and Runebound. There is some argument to be made that Diskwars is the successor to Battlemist before Runewars, but I digress. The original factions for Battlemist were Elves, Knights, Undead, Uthuk, Dwarves and Orcs. These same factions then show up in Diskwars, which acts as the past history of runebound and runewars

Battlemist follows many of the same concepts as Runewars, albeit in a more primative set of rules. There is map building with hex tiles, empire building through control of wood, iron, and wheat, there are heroes looking for the shards of timmoran, a wizard council that meets to decide the fate of the land, and tactic cards. Runewars is Battlemist second Ed. with a newer IP update.

So then we come to the question of expense. My argument is that this not the case. While you are right that margins are tight for the general boardgame market and that we get a great value to cost for the game, if one does a cost/value analysis of the product, it should not cost that much to add 2 more factions. There are many ways it could have been accomplished, it just wasn't.

The factions should have made it in.

And past all that, I did mention that everything I have said is a RANT. An emotional expression of my frustration at not receiving an expansion OR the 2 other factions I was waiting for with the main box. In addition, I don't want this to be a taste of things to come. I don't want TI3 to only have 6 factions. I want there to be many replay options for all their games. The only way I can make my point is to either say it in a place that it will be heard, OR vote with my dollars and not buy their products. I would rather keep supporting them for all the great games and things they've created for me than cut them off for a single thing that I hate. But that said, I do Hate it. It Does feel to me that it's milking. I would like to be wrong, but evidence doesn't support that. If it's simply that they felt it was too expensive to do it the way they wanted it, I think they need to reassess what they're goals are.

Additionally, without this customer feedback, they would never improve the product. Even if I am simply an outlier, now they have more information of how some people feel about the box. They get to see your defense of the product, and other people's thoughts on what's needed, etc. I'm sure someone on the design team must have noticed that there's a "please give us more races" thread every other week. Maybe they'll rethink their plan in the future. Who knows? In the meantime, I must speak in order to be heard.

With all due respect, nothing you've stated is "proof" at all - merely conjecture. There's no evidence that FFG has EVER, in ANY game, left stuff out for the SOLE reason of "milking" it in an expansion. Yes, there are probably times when stuff was left out, and added later. Starcraft, for example, has the base game not including "Brood Wars" stuff. But that was just as likely for cost purposes. Had they included all the figures from the get-go, the game could have easily cost $120 or more, MSRP.

I know that Battlemist has 2 extra factions; I have the game. However, you imply that adding two more races would have been no big deal. But each current race has MANY custom components: 4 types of plastic units (which each have unique sculpts), a big faction sheet, a myriad of tokens, and a set of cards. And the map tiles (which, at least for a Dwarf faction, for instance, would probably have mountains). The plastic sculpts alone would probably have raised the cost noticably. How much, I don't know, but I *DO* know that the price of plastic is going up (largely due to the price of oil, I would guess). Plus, each new sculpt requires a new mold, which requires paying someone to do it, and molds aren't cheap (though they are a one-time cost, and thus the more you make, the less cost-per-copy it becomes). Each faction sheet, token, and card set requires custom artwork. This costs money.

Plus, if you allow the 2 extra factions allow for a 6-player game, that would mean other extra components in other areas: More map tiles, more Dragon Rune tokens, more Quest cards, more Mountains (probably), more Exploration Tokens, more Cities (probably). Also, 12 heroes in a 6-player game isn't enough; you'd need at least 18. So that means, while the hero units are probably cheaper since the molds are already created for other games, there is extra cost for the raw materials, plus it means more hero cards and more rewards.

I don't know for sure the EXACT cost, but considering that the game costs $100 as is, having two extra factions would probably have raised the cost 50% or so, since my rough guess is there would be 50% more "stuff". That alone would have been a good reason for trimming down the game. IE, even if that stuff WAS planned, and cut, it was to make the game come in at a reasonable price. $100 is already pushing it for most gamers; $150 would have been a much bigger investment, and thus much riskier for FFG to produce.

And that's just the "monetary" side. 6 player games may have introduced game-play factors that would have impacted things as well; having not played one, I don't know, but more players scattered around the EDGE of the map would mean more space in the middle, which would have likely decreased conflict. Maybe not, I don't know, but it's possible.

I do understand your post was just a "rant" in a rant thread. But I just don't feel accusing FFG of deliberately leaving anything out for the primary purpose of "selling it later for milking the customer" is unfair and unfounded. Previous experience for me has shown that FFG's expansion that adds stuff that "could" have been in the base game has been done to reduce costs of the base game, and that generally the expansions that FFG uses to milk something are those that are "endlessly" expandable (like Runewars, Arkham Horror, etc).

Just my rant as well I love FFG, and part of that is that I *DO* think they treat their customers fairly. Their customer service is top-notch, their games are excellent, and they are by far my favorite gaming company. I don't think they earn a reputation like that by being underhanded with the way they build their products.