I just made an Assault Marine and rose him up through the ranks and into Deathwatch Champion, it seemed like a natural fit. Once you hit Rank 4, you spend 4000 of your xp and get the template, some good gear, and two unique abilities which were pretty cool.

Is it worth it? It seemed that most of the other things on there were more expensive than the same Talent you could get as an Assault Marine. I suppose if you were from another Specialty which had no access to those Talents it makes some sense, but for Assault Marine I wasn't necessarily convinced.

Is this similar with the other advanced templates?

One thing I noticed in the description before the advanced careers are descibed is that some of the abilities are either cheaper and/or don't have a pre-requisite. So that's something I suppose.

For Champion it seemed that they had a lot of things Assault Marines could get, only more expensive.

qcipher said:

I've only quickly glanced over the advanced templates; however, I do know that I want my Tactical Marine to get the Captian role. I also hope that I'm able to get the Iron Halo before this so that I may have it as standard issue for the following missions. They all have perks for them, it's just finding the one that suites your previous,current, role. I believe that add a solid roleplaying element to the game. Think of them as prestige classes (if you've ever played any version of D&D). They aren't powerful on their own, but with the right combination they can be a potent force.

Prestige class is the best comparison for them, it's basically what they are. But PrC seems to focus your pointssuch into a rolebecome excetional (or more exceptional) at that role, aside from any role playing that comes with it (which I agree is worth some points, getting to say you're a 1st Company Veteran is something).

I'm thinking I just need to look over them more to see the value, I'm probably overlooking something.

IMO the deathwatch champion is good for an assault marine. As a space wolf, I would pick up early access to artificer armor and get a frost blade.

Rank 5 with ap 12 and a frostblade is awesome. Flesh render combined with that thing, aw yeah. That weapon is beastly, throw in xenos bane and its just gravy.

What book are the advanced careers in?

They are in RoB.

But was it not that the xp spend to advanced careers don't count for rank advancement?
At least that's what I have in mind.

qcipher said:

That's up to you. If you are desperate for extra wargear, like the flavour,want close combat skills early, at an increased price, then 'yes'.

The alternative careers are a choice, not -like PrCs in 3.5- a no-brainer. That's what's good about them. The Champion is there for people who REALLY want to be good at fightingdon't mind suffering in other areas. The Captain is a nice career class for leaders who aren't already Ultramarine Tacticals, the Keeper is brilliantly flavourful, as is the Chaplain. The forgemasterLibrarians ones are almost no-brainers (but not quite!),the 1coy Veteran is nice because it gives you loads of rounding-out skills on the cheap. They're all good in their own different ways, without being 'broken good'.

When you take into account that the entry fee XP covers the cost of the skills, talents, and wargear that you get for joining the class and you get an extended list of advances it can be very worth it.

Keep in mind that, as has been mentioned, the advance specialties are all about the flavornot, like a prestige class, an excuse for becoming overpowered.

The only advance template I don't agree with is the Chaplain. It says that Space Wolves can't become Chaplains...WTF? They have Wolf Priests,are by far much better than a "standard" Space Marine Chaplain.

MexicanNinja said:

Space Wolves, being the special snowflakes that they are, don't have Chaplains. They, as you pointed out, have Wolf Priests. They are not Chaplains, they are somewhere between witchdoctors and shaman. They are so different as to be incompatible with any other chapter.

One of the things that I did like was being able to get hero level wargear at a decent pricean early level, aside from the power swordshield which comes standard. So I am coming around on these. The roleplaying factor is also great, i may have understated that a bit.

I think the main attraction is being able to cross concepts a bit so that you can add more to your character that his specialty just doesn't provide. A Librarian with their Force weapons could be an awesome Assaulter (never mind their other powers) but they will never get some of the supreme melee talents that Assault Marines get, unless they go into Champion. So yes, I'm seeing the worth now.

What was that though about the entrance fee not contributing to the Rank determination?

qcipher said:

Do not underestimate the power of Counter Attack.

(And: early Dodge+20 is good. Combat Master also but maybe too expensive.)

Alex

ItsUncertainWho said:

Wolf Priests are Space Wolf Chaplains, if you've read any books about themplayed warhammer 40k you'd know what I'm talking about here. They are a superior Chaplain, they have the same abilities but better,have the same "basic" wargear with better upgrades as well.

MexicanNinja said:

Except that they are also the SW Apothecary unit.

So, no they are not the same as a normal Chaplain nor a normal Apothecary.

MexicanNinja said:

Wolf Priests are Space Wolf Chaplains, if you've read any books about themplayed warhammer 40k you'd know what I'm talking about here. They are a superior Chaplain, they have the same abilities but better,have the same "basic" wargear with better upgrades as well.

Wolf Priests are not just Chaplains, they are not "better", just different. They are shamans, who guide the young, care for the injured as well as inspire troops and care for their spiritual wellbeing. To do so they combine the fuctions of a chaplain and apothecary together. This is not unique, The Iron Hands have Iron Fathers, who are techmarines + chaplains together. As for their inclusion in deathwatch, both of these specialists are too vauable to their parent chapters, as well as being too rare to second to the deathwatch for any appreciable period, therefore why they are not playable.

As for better wargear, I think a Salamander Chaplains and Iron Hand Iron Fathers would argue that

Cheers,

Well, my knowledge is from 40k, and no Wolf Priests are not apothecaries, and Space Wolves are one of the few chapters who can't have apothecaries. And yes, Wolf Priests are superior to chaplains in 40k. Chaplains allow himself and the unit he is with to re-roll failed rolls to hit when they assault. Wolf Priests grant him and the squad prefered enemy.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_Priest

I know that the lexicanum isn't official GW material, but I'd say it's pretty accurate.

And my knowledge comes from the 40k universe also. Wolf Priests function in a combined apothecary/chaplain role.

arcticintel said:

Again, I am stating facts from 40k, table-top. Wolf Priests offer no apothecary role on 40k table-top, and they have superior abilities and skills compared to a chaplain outside of Blood Angels.

Remember to read the fluff, too. A Deathwatch Chaplain is not the same thing as a Chapter Chaplain.

MexicanNinja said:

But fluff-wise, they serve in both the apothecary role and the chaplain role.

Also, Siranui is correct. The deathwatch chaplain is VERY different than a chapter chaplain. They learn to tend to the needs of all deathwatch members regardless of chapter. I'd think it's unlikely that a blood angel would want a wolf priest preaching to him, nor would a space wolf want a blood angel chapter chaplain preaching to him.

Currently wolf priests are outside the scope of deathwatch, although it's entirely possible they might be added as a specialty advance in the future.

Siranui said:

I did, it would seem that if a wolf priest were to make it into the deathwatch, who wouldn't want a chaplain-apothecary (as some of you claim him to be), I'm pretty sure one of the Emperor's finest would learn to level his emotions for the other chapters, especially when dealing with or being a chaplain.

From my understanding,other chapters do not second Chaplains to the Deathwatch. If they did,then Chaplain would be a starting class option instead of an advanced speciality,which pretty much nixes any ideas of a Wolf Priest being seconded to the Deathwatch. Deathwatch Chaplains are all seemingly promoted from within their own ranks in much the same way as Watch Captains and Watch Commanders are promoted. The issue in a Space Wolf becoming a Deathwatch Chaplain is the fact he was brought up with one certain set of ideology vastly different from the other Space Marine chapters. Not only that,but the Space Wolves take great pride in their individuality and non-adherance to the Codex Astartes,so I think it's somewhat of a stretch to think that one will suddenly see the wisdom in another organization's philosophy and way of doing things. If I was running Deathwatch and a player gave me a good reason and role-played it well,then I would consider allowing a Space Wolf to become a Chaplain as an elite advance,but they would have to conform to that set of ideals and would be a Deathwatch Chaplain,not a Space Wolves Wolf Priest using the Deathwatch Chaplain template.

Cujo999 said:

Old lore had Chaplains seconded to Deathwatch for all the different "secret" that chapters have kinda made it that way. Sons of Sanguinius would have someone to look out for the on set of the black rage and red thirst. Sons of Russ the same thing with the fear of wolfen. Captains used to be second to Deathwatch as well since it is understood that best xeno fighter were to be sent so their knowledge could be shared, and in turn learn from other chapter about other xeno. When they return they would share what they learned from Deathwatch, but then the big ][ had overall command not some Watch Commander.

Honestly I see why they moved them to Advance since any Captain would be leader which could lead to players bossing others around.

A little back on topic, I'd say there are two "no-brain" options in Rites of Battle: The Black Shield (make your custom Space Marine, also a quicker and dirtier option to make your own chapter), and the Kill-Marine.

I've been recently making four characters to GM The Emperor Protects this weekend, and it has ended being a "Codex party plus the crazy boy" (ultramarine Apotecary, Imperial Fists Devastator, Assault Blood Angel and the default leader, a Crimson Fists Tactical Marine), and I realized there was a very great problem in the group: almost no non-combat related skills (tech-use and medicine count, for me, as battle-related ^^). So when I reached the Tactical Marine, I added him the Kill-Marine option, and my god how awesome it gets (partly thanks to a 47 + 15 FEL, plus Peer (Adeptus Astartes), Mighty Lineage, Mark IV "Maximus" armour and some extra rolls in the history of the armor). In short, the leader of the group has become a mix between an explorer (stummer ftw, plus the camaleonine cloack and a Stalker-pattern bolter as Signature Wargear), a sniper, an quick-mobile fighter (it has a MIU, and a requisicioned Jet Pack for the mission...) and can actually lie (Deceive +20)...

My onlycomplaint is that they forgot to add an Omni-Scope in Rites of Battle, and that the Signature Wargear talent can be a little tricky. In that regard (off topic), the player of the BA assault marine wanted a Raven Guard assault marine with two energy claws, and ended with the BA (second option) spending 1500 XP to get a single energy claw (30 points of 40...), quite a turn-off :S