Hello fello Battle-Brothers,
after reading this section about successor chapters I wondered: Why should I stick with the original chapters? Some successor chapters give additional skills and or talents without any drawbeck.
Cheers,
TechVoid.
Successor Chapters
Because it's a roleplaying game?
Aside from that, First foundings have more 'kudos' and are often perceived as cooler.
Plus: I wouldn't allow a player of a successor to use Relics from the original Chapter, nor perhaps some of the Deeds.
Siranui said:
Because it's a roleplaying game?
Aside from that, First foundings have more 'kudos' and are often perceived as cooler.
I agree with you but since I have my origins in DnD such thoughts arise automatically in my mind. Additional books seem to lead to power creep. Thus if I think about it I wonder on the other hand why successor chapters give you a bonus? I think one could argue that the original legions have 'purer gene-codes' or things like that.
Maybe successor chapters have an additional defect in one of their implants.
Or successor chapters have the advantege that they are more skilled and talented but the original legions are tougher. So if you stay with an original chapter you may increase an additional characterisic by +5.
Cheers,
TechVoid.
Siranui said:
Plus: I wouldn't allow a player of a successor to use Relics from the original Chapter, nor perhaps some of the Deeds.
Agreed. If you read the fiction, each chapter has their own relics. That means sucessor chapters would NOT have access to relics from a parent chapter. Some successor chapters vary greatly from their parents. This might include combat doctrine or overall tactics. In essence these chapters may start off a little better, but overall you don't get the depth or possible backstory from the parent chapters (as well as any chapter specific gear).
TechVoid said:
Hello fello Battle-Brothers,
after reading this section about successor chapters I wondered: Why should I stick with the original chapters? Some successor chapters give additional skills and or talents without any drawbeck.
Cheers,
TechVoid.
Play whatever you like. If there doesn't seem to be a reason for you to take something over another, then don't. For many, the reasons might go beyond Skills and Talents, some may just strongly prefer a certain option.
Siranui said:
Plus: I wouldn't allow a player of a successor to use Relics from the original Chapter, nor perhaps some of the Deeds.
While I can understand where you're coming from, this houserule doesn't necessarily have the effect you're looking for of acting as a balancing negative. It just means that new Relics relevant to the Successor Chapter need to be generated and balanced. I think it's far easier to just use the Relics of the Founding Chapter and assume that the Successors (especially Second Founding Chapters) have equivalent items.
I don't agree that new relics 'need' creating. There are plenty of Deathwatch -generic ones to use instead. I'd maybe make *one* for successors, but that'd be it.
Also: Most of the bonuses are relatively small. Sure: Play a White Council and get a +10 to CL:Guard in exchange for Ultramarine 'we've got more battle honours than you' bragging rights, or a Crimson Fist to gain +10WS/+2 damage vs. orcs. It's not a game-changer. You'd have to be a fairly heartless munchkin to a Chapter for such a small bonus, compared to the chance you've been waiting for for 25 years to play your favourite flavour marine!
Siranui said:
I don't agree that new relics 'need' creating. There are plenty of Deathwatch -generic ones to use instead. I'd maybe make *one* for successors, but that'd be it.
Also: Most of the bonuses are relatively small. Sure: Play a White Council and get a +10 to CL:Guard in exchange for Ultramarine 'we've got more battle honours than you' bragging rights, or a Crimson Fist to gain +10WS/+2 damage vs. orcs. It's not a game-changer. You'd have to be a fairly heartless munchkin to a Chapter for such a small bonus, compared to the chance you've been waiting for for 25 years to play your favourite flavour marine!
Second Founding Chapters were composed of veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are as likely to have Relics from that era (or later) as any of the First Foundings.
I happen to like the Angels of Absolution (Dark angels sans guilt complex), and their 'bonus' is fairly minor, possibly even a flaw if you roll poorly. OTOH, the Consecrators get a pretty big bonus out the door. As for waiting 25 years... No one in my group gave two ***** about the various Chapters for anywhere near that long. We have one Space Wolves fan, but otherwise the RPG is where we got into our Chapter fluff. I'd hardly say that lacking a pre-exisiting interest in the pre-RPG game fluff creates "heartless munchkins" as a rule.
TechVoid said:
Hello fello Battle-Brothers,
after reading this section about successor chapters I wondered: Why should I stick with the original chapters? Some successor chapters give additional skills and or talents without any drawbeck.
Cheers,
TechVoid.
The Successor rules are merely stop-gap measures anyway, just to populate Erioch with enough chapters. Hand-out proper disadvantages as you see fit.
Alex
HappyDaze said:
Second Founding Chapters were composed of veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are as likely to have Relics from that era (or later) as any of the First Foundings.
I happen to like the Angels of Absolution (Dark angels sans guilt complex), and their 'bonus' is fairly minor, possibly even a flaw if you roll poorly. OTOH, the Consecrators get a pretty big bonus out the door. As for waiting 25 years... No one in my group gave two ***** about the various Chapters for anywhere near that long. We have one Space Wolves fan, but otherwise the RPG is where we got into our Chapter fluff. I'd hardly say that lacking a pre-exisiting interest in the pre-RPG game fluff creates "heartless munchkins" as a rule.
But we're not talking about Relics the Chapter has. We're talking Relics the Chapter had which are now sat gathering dust in Erioch.
I imagine that viewpoint is possibly a minority one, as I only know of one player who didn't decide what Chapter to play within 15 seconds, before even *looking* at the rulebook.
Siranui said:
But we're not talking about Relics the Chapter has. We're talking Relics the Chapter had which are now sat gathering dust in Erioch.
Bingo. All chapters, second founding/successor chapters all have them. Whether or not they gave them to "this" particular arm of the Deathwatch is another story.
As for TechVoids original question, don't forget that Black Templars are a second founding as well. Hopefully most people do not play this specifically to munchkin it out. They play because of a fondness for the chapter.
If as a GM you feel there is a power creep and want to house rule change some of the main rules, that's your prerogative.
Lucrosium Malice said:
Siranui said:
But we're not talking about Relics the Chapter has. We're talking Relics the Chapter had which are now sat gathering dust in Erioch.
Bingo. All chapters, second founding/successor chapters all have them. Whether or not they gave them to "this" particular arm of the Deathwatch is another story.
Good grief... That's some really poor reasoning. The reason that "this particular arm of the Deathwatch" has Relics spelled out from the Chapters in the Core Rulebook and no other is plainly one of that's the Chapters spelled out in the Core Rulebook. You add in extra Chapters, you should add in extra Relics from those Chapters too.
Siranui said:
I imagine that viewpoint is possibly a minority one, as I only know of one player who didn't decide what Chapter to play within 15 seconds, before even *looking* at the rulebook.
You consistently make the assumption that your group is the standard. There are many more players out there that you obviously do not know.
HappyDaze said:
Good grief... That's some really poor reasoning. The reason that "this particular arm of the Deathwatch" has Relics spelled out from the Chapters in the Core Rulebook and no other is plainly one of that's the Chapters spelled out in the Core Rulebook. You add in extra Chapters, you should add in extra Relics from those Chapters too.
How is that poor reasoning?
Some successor chapters do not tithe Astartes to the Deathwatch for various reasons. Distance, current engagements, depletion of forces, whatever. I seriously doubt that every known chapter has given a relic to this particular Deathwatch station as well.
HappyDaze said:
You consistently make the assumption that your group is the standard. There are many more players out there that you obviously do not know.
Hence 'possibly'. I'm basing this not just on my own group, but that of several others that I know of.
DW is a game with enormous fan-appeal, which is also of fairly limited general appeal. Whereas a lot of people have been waiting a long time for the game to be printed (like...decades...) and already know what they want from it, the game has -in my experience- *very* limited appeal to those not familiar with the 40k universe. 'What, I have to play a one-dimensional super-soldier who HAS to be a guy, in a military game, based in a horribly amoral game world?' seems to be a very common reaction.
Lucrosium Malice said:
HappyDaze said:
Good grief... That's some really poor reasoning. The reason that "this particular arm of the Deathwatch" has Relics spelled out from the Chapters in the Core Rulebook and no other is plainly one of that's the Chapters spelled out in the Core Rulebook. You add in extra Chapters, you should add in extra Relics from those Chapters too.
How is that poor reasoning?
Some successor chapters do not tithe Astartes to the Deathwatch for various reasons. Distance, current engagements, depletion of forces, whatever. I seriously doubt that every known chapter has given a relic to this particular Deathwatch station as well.
So you think it's just coincidence that the Relics listed match up with the same Chapters provided with full write-ups? I think you're failing to see why those examples were given. It's not because they are any more likely to grant such Relics, or even that they should. It's because that was all that was provided until the later material came out. Do you think that Imperial Fists Relics just arrived sometime later too? I think not.