it seems pretty certain that CSMs are going to be an integral part of BC, but how would they handle creating CSMs of different legions, and what legions would they open up in the core if they split it down to legions?

my thoughts:

Black legion

iron warriors

thousand sons

red corsairs (depending on when they set the campaign)

Night Lords?

I don't think that they will add any legions from the start. More likly is that there are some "generic" rules for Chaos Space Marines with fluff for the different legions and various talents and skills that can be bought to customize a Chaos Space Marine into a legion. I do not however doubt that there will be a supplement focusing on the Traitor Legions and with alot of additional rules and stuff for each legion, and very possibly for different kinds of Chaos Space Marines, like Rubic Marines, Noise Marines etc.

I could also see it going a bit into the difference between Chaos Space Marines and Renegades as well as the difference between those traitors who have been around since the Horus Heresy, and the ones who have turned in more recent times. The first priority will probably be that the older the Chaos Space Mariens have been away from the Imperium the more they are dependent on Warp powers and mutations, and are in possession of them, and have less reliable equipment, while the opposite it true for more recent Chaos Space Marines. With some notable exceptions of course, like the Iron Warriors.

Blood Gorgons...

Berserkers of Skatherax...

The Pyre...

More likely the space marine chapters which were declared excommunicate traitoris following the Horus Heresy would be used as examples rather than have a listing of members of the Traitor Legions.

Though to make assumptions at this early stage is just that...maybe there will one or two of the more "socially acceptable" traitor Legions. Alpha Legion are likely, Emperor's Children (maybe?), Word Bearers are also possible.

The Thousand Sons strike me as a difficult one seeing as if my memory serves me so after some kind of ritual to stave of mutations from ripping the legion apart most of the legion, bar the mystically inclined, were rendered as little better than handfuls of dust occupying baroque power armour. Which brings up the question of how do the Thousand Sons replenish their ranks?

In my eyes playing a traitor legionnaire from the chapter would be as difficult (if not moreso) than playing one of the beserkers from the World eaters in a group.

Though making assumptions at such an early stage may make an 'ass' of one self...until we know further anything we say is just speculation.

I don't think that the Emperor's Children will be featured as a possible legion due to their special attitudes, although the Alpha Legion seems reasonable. I could however see the Black Legion making it, as they are a bit of the poster-boys for the Chaos Space Marines.

When I really take a moment to think about it, I could see them giving you the option of choosing which Legion your reneade is from, since it doesn't take up much space. Though I think the Career itself might see its advancement chart trimmed down a little to accomidate for it, evening out in the end.

Though I can't see the Thousand Sons being one of the core ones, considering that they're all either sorcerers or living suits of armour. And that just strikes me as requiring too much rules-wise to include in the core book (though I suppose sorcerers would be easy, so they might be in), but if they weren't in the core, I'd definetly count on them being in a supplement.

Reading The Hunt for Voldorious, I can definetly see the Alpha Legion being in the book, as they favour the kind of subversive strategy that fits in well with demagogues and sorcerers, when trying to subvert a loyal imperial world. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I'd be surprised if you couldn't choose them (assuming Legion is an issue).

But as much as I believe my theories to be likely at times, I've been wrong before. Case in point, rules for playing Grey Knights in Daemon Hunters.

I´m interested to see how they intend to integrade chaos space marines (as opposed to renegade space marines) into Black Crusade groups.

Will all characters start on space marine niveau in terms of individual power?

If not, how is a headstart for one career justified?

Won´t a true chaos space marine abuse his power to bully the rest of the group around?

Just a few thoughts I am concerned with.

with it being open system, maybe the chaos sm options are at a certain exp range so you start a game at that 'range' to account for that?

moepp said:

At the very least, it is apparent Chaos can make even normal normals as powerful as Marines, if not more powerful in the case of the greatest Champions, so who knows?

Dulahan said:

I agree. But that wasn´t my point.

I was talking about early character development.

While a normal human can start out somewhat weak (like a fresh character is most often) and become powerful character as he progresses, a chaos space marine would need to be quite powerful to begin with, at least a convincing one.

Probably becoming a CSM is an advanced step though (I would have said career, but those have been abandoned in BC), since CSM recruit new aspirants aswell.

As stated, the Alpha Legion is a good start. I think my personal favorite would be the Night Lords; they were branded heretics for their tactics and still as a general rule do not worship the Chaos Gods. The Red Corsairs would be a GREAT! template for Chaos Space Marines; since their break from the Imperium they have taken many "lost" brothers into their ranks (the old tabletop rules let you use loyalist marines and just scratch off or paint over in red their Imperial markings)... this would let you use all the Space Marine stuff from DW as a basis then then make a "career" path change rules set.

Again, I think it is still too early to see where this will head.

-Cynr

Well, one thing about no more careers is that a fluid starting point should be a lot easier. They could easily say the CSM packages are the equivalent of X experience points and talk about having different starting points based on what power level you want in your game.

One thing for sure is that the latest news post conjures up even more questions about the game than it dispels.

I'm sure as far as what they put into the book, it will be setting based. What Chaos Space Marines either call the Screaming Vortex home or visit it?

I know others are in the Eye of Terror or in the Maelstrom, but I do not see any info about the Screaming Vortex anywhere. Anyone of import live there?

I figure its something that's been made up for the game, so I wouldn't expect any galaxy celebrities to hang around. There may however be sector or Segmentum known, or notorious, individuals who are there.

I was reading Deathwatch and noted that in the Jericho Reach, they mentioned that there was at least one Word Bearer starship at high anchor above a world. So I'd say at least they may be involved in the Screaming Vortex. World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and the Black Legion wouldn't be too far out of the question I would think. And you know, standard rules for making a chapter from Rites of Battle perverted for the sake of Chaos.

Rictus said:

Thousand Sons are stated as simply transferring the essence to a new armor if memory serves me. So it's not that they're dwindling away, far from.

vastrix said:

Given the artwork of a Black Legionnary, i'm inclined to say Abaddon's boys will be around in one form of other. Something I approve of greatly.

Well, if they tie Black Crusade in with their other goodies (as they've done with everything else), there is gauranteed to be Thousand Sons (as they've been mentioned more than once in the Dark Heresy stuff) and Alpha Legion (from the Deathwatch stuff). Black Legion is almost a gaurantee, hard to have a black crusade without them (though it's been done). If they mirror the Deathwatch Chapters, you'll have the following:

Black Legion - Ultramarines

Iron Warriors - Imperial Fists

Thousand Sons - Space Wolves

Alpha Legion - Dark Angels

World Eaters or Emperor's Children - Blood Angels

Word Bearers - Black Templars

FFG Chaos Legion - Storm Wardens

Since it only takes like, what, 15 pages to detail the CSM chapters if they get the same treatment as the loyalists it shouldn't be hard for them to do.

Well, one thing is certain. Normal SMs tend to think that they are better than humans, renegades and CSMs alot more so. So yes, normally most non-SMs would be in a precarious position in a mixed group. Personally I think mixed groups like that are a bad idea.

They cant manage the power levels in the already released lines between the different type of characters, with basically the Acolyte types being well above their Explorator buddies at 5k ep but being more in line with the Deathwatch Marines at 13k(though skyrocketing away soon after in most careers)...

Black Legion will most certainly be in... I mean, it's the Legion with all the other good stuff from every other Legion in it. The Undivided Legions are most proper... The aligned ones being mostly made up of one type marine...

The real trick will be how to explain getting CSM from different "chapters" together and to stay together for a long period of time. For the Space marines you have the Deathwatch convenience.For CSM you could have a warmaster banding together different Legions for a Crusade, but how long does a Crusade last? And even in a crusade why would there be a small group of random Legion Marines banded together?

My guess is that, given the title, the Crusade is the route they'll go for Marines. I suppose you could also have a Daemon or Daemon Prince who's banded together a group of marines for his nefarious purposes, but they would be AWOL from their Legions unless all from the same chapter. I think it's actually the biggest hurdle of the system to explain the group's cohesion.

My ideas on this:

The different chapters: this will probably be like DW, 12 or so skills+talents cheaper/only avaiable to a single chapter, 12 or so to another, etc... The "newbies" could use their parent table, changing some skills or talents for others more chaos-related.

Following on the Deatwatch style of Space Marines, it is likely they will have the following tables: 1) chapter table, 2) chaos god table (5 tables here: one per god, and a fifth for Chaos Undivided), 3) specialty table. While it is possible that certain alternative advancements (like Noise Marine) will require to be a member of a certain Legion, remember you can be "sold" to a Legion, at least according to the Dawn of War storyline (Eliphas the Inheritor was a Word Bearer in DoW: Dark Crusade, to be sold to Abaddon and become a Black Legion member in Chaos Rising).

For the traitor legions previously discussed:

First, the Thousand Sons: this ones will most likely be avaiable only as sorcerers. The animated suits of armor always obey a Thousand Sons sorcerer, and that is a ***** for a player, even if the armors can go on their own. I think recruiting Rubric Marines as minions will be cheaper for these characters aswell.

Second, the Alpha Legion: I see some problems with them being in this supplement, as far as I know no member of the Alpha Legion has ever been in the Warp without the protection of a Geller Field (and no, they never went inside the Eye of Terror). Furthermore, they are not mutated, and they don't serve any chaos god...

The World Eaters would be another option to have as minions, since, well, I think most (if not all) of them are just crazy killing machines (specially their Daemon Primarch).

For the FFG "Chaos Legion", it should be a post-heresy traitor chapter, since I doubt Games Workshop will allow the use of one of the two "free slots" in their count of 20 original primarchs/legions. As for the other ones, I have no comment there ^^

Honestly, ever since we learned that character creation will be free-form, and that all the 'classes' will just be archetypical templates that you use in the beginning, I'm not sure we'll get any rules for the specific Legions anymore. It's not like we actually need them, and if anyone is likely to break with the tendencies of their Chapter/Legion it's a Chaos Marine.

Afterall, if a Black Legionaire becomes a Khorne Berserker, which is going to be making a greater impact on their personality? I'd weigh in on the side of the latter myself, because I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be mostly like any other Khorne Berserker.

It kinda sucks, but having the freeform system with archetypical classes, and then a Deathwatch-like system of Legions alongside it, just sounds like we'd be ripe for a clash of rules. Though, that doesn't mean they wouldn't give us guidelines, or a sidebar, talking about what could be done to model the various traitor Legions within the framework of the existing rules.

Yeah, there may be some recommendations for not using to different legions together for the value of immersion, but in the end I think that we can come up with decent ideas for having them appeare in various places together. They did after all manage at least two major wars, Horus Heresy and the 13th Black Crusade together, and so they should manage to work on a smaller level as well. My take is that Chaos Space Marines are also individualistic to a greater degree than the Imperial Chapters so they can probably form new warbands and such across legion borders.

Here's my take on them.

Black Legion: Is divided into various warbands with a general overlordship by Abaddon, and he only flex his muscles when he needs manpower and thus many members of the Black Legions can probably pursue their own agenda most of the time.

Night Lords: I don't know for sure

Alpha Legion: They seem to be divided into independent warbands and cells operate pretty independent of each other, so no reason that they can't join up with other Chaos forces as they are already fostering Chaos cults and stuff.

World Eaters: Fractured into warbands so they should be able to more or less show up anywhere.

Emperor's Children: Fractured into warbands like the World Eaters

Death Guard: This can be a bit harder, but since Typhus could act pretty independent during the 13th Black Crusade I don't see individual agendas as impossible

Word Bearers: I can see some of them being sent on missionary work to use whatever oppertunity to spread the worship of Chaos

Thousand Sons: What I saw it looks like the Thousands Sons have also fractured into warbands, so no problem with following one's own agenda there.

Iron Warriors: Don't know for sure

Gurkhal said:

And that's not what I was talking about at all!

I'm saying that there won't be any rules for the different Legions, but they might give us guidelines for how to make a character from specific a Legion, like "An Emperor's Child has the Skills A, B, and C, and the Talents X, Y, and Z". Different Legions working together is entirely a nonissue, the game isn't about Chaos Space Marines, so they're not likely to go that much detail on them.

Much more likely are they to talk about the general animosity between Khorne and Slaanesh followers, as well as Tzeentch and Nurgle followers, and leave the players to use common sense and extrapolate from there for Chaos Marines.

Blood Pact said:

And that's not what I was talking about at all!

Well I wasn't thinking of my post as a direct reply to your own post, but rather basing it a little on it and then flying out on my own. And while Chaos Space Marines are not the main focus, they remain within the game and Legions are an important part of the Chaos Space Marines, hence I would be suprised if it isn't at least given a sidebar.