Advance apologies if I missed this in the corebook or if it's been covered here already.

1) Can a Librarian use a damaging psychic technique that costs a half-action and use his other half action to make a weapon attack? If so,what penalties are applied to the rolls?

2) If #1 is allowable, what happens if a Librarian uses that damaging psychic power in conjunction with an attack with a force weapon?

This could very well be covered in the book, but I'll be damned if I can find it.

Garawjukh said:

The answer is no- psychic attacks count as an attack action, which means you cannot use a psychic power in the same turn that you make an attack, standard or otherwise.

Also for force weapons, the roll to activate the force weapon is a free action, but can still only be used once per turn (so if you attack 3 times with the force sword, only one of the attacks can be activated).

Both of those are per Ross and/or the eratta.

Don't you routinely use multiple attack actions when you attack with dual weapons?

Or is the Multiple Attack Action considered a single 'attack'? I don't have the book atm.

Garawjukh said:

So it's complicated for certain, and the desingers have been known to call the attack types different things from time to time.

Attacking with a second weapon in the same turn requires the talent 'two weapon wielder' in DW, and to do this takes a full round action.

Swift attack and lightning attack allow you bonus attacks with your good hand (one and two attacks respectively), and to do so is a full round action.

Swift/Lightning can be combined with TWW to give you your on hand attacks and one bonus attack with your off hand.

Regardless of how many times you attack in a given turn due to various talents, that force sword can only be activated once in that turn.

Charmander said:

I guess it sort of makes sense if you squint and cock your head funny. It boils down to the description of Two Weapon Wielder only encompassing weapons, and not saying anything specifically about combining psychic powers.

I guess actually linking the two would require some sort of Psychic Melee talent that doesn't actually exist.

Thanks for the clarification.

Charmander said:

This part is not correct.
First you can attack with doal weapons without the talents but with penalties.
Second I think it's just a standart attack to do so.

Nevertheless you can not use a psypower and attack in the same turn. Even if the power is not an attack.
So even iron arm or inspiration (don't know if they are halfround or fullround actions) counts as the 1 allowed attack action per round.

Even if you use lightning attack with tww it's just one (fullround) action to do so. Regardless of the number of attacks (in that case 4) you make.

Umbranus said:

I'll have to double check the book when I get to it, but I'm 99% certain DW updated this to require TWW in order to use the second attack under the description of attacking with two weapons near the end of the combat section. It doesn't contain the language included in the DH Eratta, which as been noted by many people as odd. Some people apply DH eratta to DW, which is really up to you, but RAW prohibits this.

And ever since DH making more than one attack has requried a full round action, even if you're attacking once with your good hand and once with your offhand. You can see this clearly in the DH eratta page 11: "If you have the Two Weapon Wielder talent you can hold two weapons, one in each hand, and can make a single attack with each. This is a Full Action." (and at this point the eratta goes on to allow you to use two weapons without the talent, but again DW left this part out)

@Garawjukh: The ruling is that a psychic power activation roll counts as an attack, and you're only allowed to make one attack action in a given turn (but as noted, that attack action may or may not give you multiple attacks or chances to hit). The exceptions being noted, specifically activating a force sword. In some cases, this makes clear sense, in others it's a little foggier, but ultimately it's a much needed balance issue (psychic powers are already pretty friggin powerful without the ability to fire full atuo or attack 100 times in addition to).

Wait a minute, you cant make standard attacks while using Iron Arm?

nolsutt said:

It depends on the power description- there are exceptions to the psychich OR attack, but they are just that - exceptions. The other trick is many psychic powers can be active and used in conjunction with your next attack.

Isn't iron arm sustained?
But it's bad enough that you can only do half round actions while sustaining powers (as sustaining already uses up a half action).
That's the reason noone in our group wants to play a librarian because we think they suck for just that reason.

If the group is on the move he can du nothing but sustain his power(s) for example.

Umbranus said:

First of all, you can use multiple attacks without the TWW talent. Secondly, when you cast Iron Arm, you can't make an attack that turn . But on the next turn, even if you sustain it, you have a half action to make a standard attack. Yes, it's limiting but when you are charged by a genestealer, you may want to consider casting that power nonetheless.

And librarians don't suck, they are actually the most powerful specialty around.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I agree, but there are some powers that suck, and there are some that sound great until you work out the action economy of actually trying to do anything meaningful while sustaining them.

HappyDaze said:

Sustaining isn't that bad for a librarian, a standard attack with a force sword is good enough, especially since we have learned that you can channel only once per turn anyway.

For the record, I have been asking about the cost of Wings of Sanguinius and due to my inquiry, it has been included in the errata that sustaining it is a free action. Shortly after the errata was released I messaged a rules request, asking for clarification which powers possibly also can be sustained for free and an official word on which powers can be dodged.

I have received no response for the last two months. Maybe you want to renew that request, Happy Daze? I think the strength/damage buffing powers might be a candidate for free sustentation. Also some protective powers perhaps.

Alex

Umbranus said:

Apparently, wizards in 3.5 are sucky, too...

Librarians really aren't a weak choice at all. Indeed: They're often plot-crucial!

Charmander said:

Woh wait a second... Where does it say in the rules that activating a psychic power is an "attack"? I would consider an attack to be something like smite or avenger. Why wouldnt you be able to, in the same turn, activate possibility shield and then smite an enemy both as half actions? Only smite is an actual attack...

JagerXII said:

It doesn't say that in the rules. I believe it was in the DH errata on in the DH forum, don't remember. The assumption is that it carries over into DW:

Aöex

Ok thanks for the response. However until I see an errata for DW saying this I will continue playing it as written in the DW core rule book. Space Marine Librarians are some of the most power psykers in the Imperium so there is no reason they would not be able to have the clarity of mind or power to use two psychic powers within a few seconds. Everything is scaled up in DW.

p236 DW rulebook, paragraph 7 under half actions "A character cannot take the same Half Action twice in the same Turn"

p239 DW rulebook, paragraph 5 under focus power "This Action is used to manifest psychic powers in combat"

so personally as a GM two psychic powers in one turn is a definite no-no. I have also heard from official sources that two attacks in one turn is a definite no-no as well. so I would say

Smite then Veil of Time - not allowed

Smite then grenade throw - not allowed

Veil of Time then grenade throw - allowed

JagerXII said:

I don't think it will get errata'ed for a while, seeing as it's mentioned in the rules, as per the post above.

Ah ok, there it is. Focus Power is a specific action you take durring combat so I concede that you may not use two powers in the same turn. However it does not say that using focus power is an attack unless it is an attacking power so you would be able to make an attack half action such as fire a single shot or a single attack swing if you for instance used possibility shield.

Also would you be able to channel your force weapon durring the same turn because it does not use the focus power action but rather makes you take a focus power test any time you do damage?

JagerXII said:

Yeah, it is a questionable one, I think the answer, looking at the main book, is that the psychic powers were never properly finished. it states in the focus power action that every psychic power has subtypes and the subtypes of the power determine the subtype of the action. so if smite has the attack subtype then the focus power action to cast smite counts as an attack and you cannot attack twice in one round.

BUT

I can't find anything that states any psychic powers have any subtypes unless it's in the errata so I think just common sense here for what is an attack and what is not.

and to answer your other question I don't know how it goes RAI but by literal RAW all that is forbidden is using the same half action twice so even if activating the force sword ability was a focus power action it is a free action and thus I would say you can use a focus power half action in the same turn

so I would say by RAW

free action: shout "FOR THE EMPEROR"

half action: attack with force sword

free action: trigger focus power test

half action: cast possibility shield

is a legal turn as long as 1. you don't apply DH rules to DW and 2. a game designer hasn't said otherwise

Narkasis Broon said:

You are using two focus power tests here. That is the same action twice in a round, even if one is a free action.

ItsUncertainWho said:

But my point is that unless a game designer has said otherwise you can use the same action twice in a round the quote is

"A character cannot take the same Half Action twice in the same Turn" see above for page reference

You can use the same action twice in a round as long as it's not a half action, for example genestealers with step aside will use dodge twice in a round

Or for example I could take the free action something as many times as I want in a turn, if I'm holding a power sword and a bolt pistol and I wanted to try to catch a falling person I doubt any GM would prevent me from dropping both and trying to catch with both hands because I can't use the same action twice in a round

I will admit in terms of effort it seems like psychic powers should be a little bit different and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a message from a game designer that corrects me. and if there is I will gladly run the game how it is intended.

BUT

as the book is written the "dont use the same action twice" rule doesnt apply to reactions or free actions, only half actions, and using the force sword power is a free action

- Original Message -
From: "Ross Watson" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 7, 2011 2:37:00 PM
Subject: Re: Fantasy Flight Games [Rules Questions] - Deathwatch

Hello there,

Activating a force weapon's abilities in melee is a Free Action once
per round. So, if the Librarian has Lightning Attack and hits three
times, he may only activate the force weapon's bonus damage once.

- Original Message -
From: "Ross Watson" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 12:24:19 PM
Subject: Re: Fantasy Flight Games [Rules Questions] - Deathwatch

Hello there!

Page 236 in the Deathwatch rulebook explains that "A character cannot
take the same Half Action twice in the same turn."

Throwing a grenade is a Standard Attack.

Unless otherwise noted, using a psychic power counts as using a
standard attack action.

Narkasis Broon said:

Dodge is a reaction, not an action, that can only be used when it is not your turn. Step Aside is a talent that makes an exception to the one reaction per round restriction.

Diarrhea of the mouth and dropping things are not in the same league as channeling the warp.

The Focuse Power action is listed as a concentration subtype. Since a focus power test is required for force weapon activation and for activating a power, you can't activate two powers in one round.