I know the thread is loooooong but a lot of your answers are contained within (and in the sister threads). Short answer is yes, though it is the opinion of many that you should be careful when concocting situations not to over use or ideas or to railroad/sideline your devestator. There are 101 ways to do it, and having the dev definitely creates a GMming challenge, but that's okay if you ask me because DW isn't a beginner's game (despite that some of the marketing doesn't mention this).

BRB, going to play palladium now to refresh my mind on how crap that system was in order to further destroy this particular thread

Oh GOD, I remember trying to play Rifts, and I couldn't figure out how the system actually WORKED.

Fenrisnorth said:

Ah, it's not that difficult. I like Rifts although I run it under house rules (not because its terrible otherwise but because I wanted a punch-through system for MDC armour and not pseudo-hit point system. Penetrating shots don't necessarily translate into 100 SDC damage as they might be grazing shots or cap out on limb hits, similar to GURPS).

You guys should play Ninjas & Superspies. It needs serious house-ruling too because its totally imbalanced otherwise but it's loads of fun with all its various forms and moves. Plus the many homebrewn forms on the internets.

Alex

I LOVED their settings (same as I did with Shadowrun, which was another terrible system), they just had crap rules that didn't work very well. Be it MDC/SDC or the complete and total lack of opposed skill checks (except for dodges), or a large lack of social skills. And they were also kings of power creep, every goddamn supplement contained something at least 1.5x better than the previous books.

It worked 'okay' when I was a dumb kid and didn't care about anything but how much damage I could do and how much I could take, but as I actually learned how to roleplay it became a lot more meh.

N&SS, the one with auto-dodges and dim mak attacks? Integrate that system with Rifts and see how broken things can get. Or TMNT. Dear god.

Charmander said:

The only thing that is really broken in N&SS is Body Chi though. And Juicers do have auto-dodges (which are not as over the top as the abilities of 40K Assassins, btw). As for Rifts, don't need really social skills there, I can handle all of that over the Mental Affinity attribute. It's old school and that is part of its charm. The power creep is no problem either as you don't have to include any of that stuff. I run RIFTS from the rulebook plus sourcebook one. Plus a number of tidbits from other books that a friend of mine owns.

Actually because the system is so "bad", the games actually tend to be more character-driven. "Good" systems tend to shift the focus more on the game-side of things. As usual I like variety, that's why I enjoy playing more modern systems like 40K RP and old-school stuff like Palladium.

Alex

Thanks Charmander. Sorry I should have read all of the thread.

Charmander said:

Urrr. Possibly the worst system I ever experienced.

*ponders*

Yup: It was. All the disadvantages of a level-based system combined with all the disadvantages of percentile, and action system that was bizarre, and no concept of balance... plus MDC. /shudder.

Normal Bolters: 1d10+5 SDC

Astartes Bolters:2d10+5 MDC

Is that about right?

Fenrisnorth said:

well that would be:

Normal 6-15 points of SDC damage

Astartes 700-2500 SDC / 7-25 MDC damage

So no.

They would both be MDC weapons in Rifts.

Come on IUW, it was a joke, because of the "ASTARTES BOLTERS R TEH BROKIN WAAAAAAH!" threads.

ak-73 said:

I seem to recall some auto-dodges in Ninjas, but it's been absolute ages since I've played that game. Not that it mattered when you had a dozen attacks. And Juicers were over the top, especially when combined with some of the 'advanced' races or the like- the 1d4+whatever survial timeline rarely figured into anyone's campaign (or play a TMNT character, which could be built to have nearly equally ridiculous stats, and give 'em an MD weapon). The thing about opposed rolls is what bugged me the most when I looked back through the system- want to sneak? Okay, you made your 98%, since there is no mechanic to spot someone, you do it! Congrats! Oh, and no built in penalties or benefits so it's always a static roll.

To me the issue with power creep was that a lot of the supplements also had good setting info- the Coalition War campaign detailed out the Coalition way better than the main book. And Atlantis was an obvious supplement, as it's the center of awesometown. Gods & Demigods and the Monster converter could be left out without much effort though- I freely admit it was too easy to get out of control as I played it during the time I was a stupid kid (as opposed to a dumb adult as I am now).

MA attribute handling all mentals...how did you do the attribute checks when you go from 3-24(or higher depending on the 'race' you played)? Did you work it into the percentile or some such?

I'll give you the fact that crap systems lend themselves to being character driven, as it's nearly impossible to play it any other way- I just get exasperated by it and prefer systems that work better and try to surround myself with players more interested in their character than their damage output. Though I tend to get people interested in both.

@Fenris- I got it and had a hearty laugh

@06cholten - it's no worries, just search on 'devestator' or 'heavy bolter' and you'll find pages about this very debate- and more importantly, good solutions and examples from some very clever forumites.

Charmander said:

Auto dodge just means that you can try to dodge every attack, even those you do not see coming, similar to a Temple Assassin. Firearms are difficult to dodge though with a -6 modifier on a d20.

Charmander said:

The latter point is a non-issue for an experienced GM. I never look up modifiers outside of combat modifiers anyway but determine them ad hoc. As for Prowl: the skill is very low and so a passed roll means to me that the PC virtually makes no sound and sneaks from cover to cover in a moment when noone is looking his way. Only when the PC does not pass his roll, the NPC can roll if he hears it.

So Stealth vs Perception is a bad example of an opposed roll, basically.

Charmander said:

It's a 3d6 based value so you can roll with a d20 against (or a d30) but need to take provisions for the high stats. My solution was an open-ended roll, adding another d20 to the first roll if the first roll was a 19 or 20.

Charmander said:

The system had never been an issue for me. Until recently I did whole system re-writes for my games anyway. The main problem I was having with the system was, as I said, that MDC armour functioned like hit points. I converted it into a punch-through system which makes for more heroic action if the guy inside survives an MDC punch-through and keeps on fighting.

Alex

I've never been able to even stomach trying Rifts, after flicking through the book. Robotech... wasn't as good as either Mechwarrior or Mekton by about a mile, and TMNT could be done with other systems much better too. I'm a firm believer of 'right tool for the job', and to me the Palladium system always seemed to be the wrong tool for every job, unless you were looking for a ridiculously over-powered Rifts ubernessfest.

Basically, I've never wanted to run a campaign where it seemed to fit as a system. And my players can do maths, and would quite happily break it over their knees inside five minutes.

Siranui said:

At the time of its release, it was nifty, little game.

Siranui said:

'Right tool for the job' is an adequate expression in science or engineering. In art, however, the wrong tool can create wonderful unexpected results. I approach role-playing more from the latter side than from the former.

As for Rifts, I like the concept of Mega-Damage. It's very interesting to explore what changes it would bring to the world, if such weapons were possible to manufacture. And the blend of styles of the Rifts world is appealing to many people actually.

What can I say? I like experience levels, the mechanism has a classic RPG feeling to it. I think percentiles for skills is best because it allows the GM to ad hoc set proper modifiers to a skill resolution test. ("If the average person has a jumk skill of 50% and they should make this jump in... let's say 38% of all tries... then the PC will have to test vs. his Jump skill with a -12 to the skill.") Fairly quick combat resolution because there is not many situational modifiers to strike/parry/dodge rolls. Simple and effective rules for short burst/long burst/full clip. Lots of nice martial arts in combination with N&SS.

That said the system does have a number of flaws (for example, leveling being rather boring with Mercenary types). Nothing that cannot be corrected though with some work and the setting is worth it.

Siranui said:

Well, they'll have trouble to outmath me, if I am the GM though.

Alex

ak-73 said:

At the time, I loved TMNT and Robotech, I just look back on them with sadness of what could have been, and the fact that they never really evolved their system. You end up with Siembieda thinking he's got the best system ever, and he actively sues everyone that tries to convert it or improve it and make their house rules in any way public.

ak-73 said:

Robotech had MDC as well- I thought overall the theory behind the mechanic was pretty sound and at the time I loved it. The concept of breaking weapons and the like into 'classes' I though was pretty sweet, and still like it when other systems try to emulate it. Though now I prefer the system developed in games like Company of Heroes (RTS) that creates classes of vehicles and people which impacts the damage, which essentially creates the same environment (where things like pistols and rocks shouldn't be able to hurt tanks, star ships, etc.)

ak-73 said:

Again, the setting(s) were wonderful, but I'm not one to rewrite large chunks of a rule set- I admire those who can/do, I just figure if I paid for the book, it should work at a basic level. Palladium works, it just doesn't work in a way that I currently enjoy, even for nostalgic purposes.

ak-73 said:

Unless they're math majors as well!

As for the rest of us, I have enough trouble being a non-math major running for math freaks in systems that aren't quite as broken as say...TMNT

As for dodges: I can't compare to temple assasins, and honestely it's been so long since I've actually played you have me at a significant disadvantage in debate, me trying to bring up half memories that are probably all false, and you remembering what box your books are in! My main recollection is that within the Palladium system, the auto-reactions that didn't burn one of your (many) attacks warped the system because they were specific to certain classes or combat styles, and the combo of Hit Points/SDC/Armor made some characters nearly unstoppable. I won't say that temple assassins aren't nearly unkillable with their auto dodges at 100%+, but somehow the feeling I get (and it's all memory based at this point) isn't as broken in 40k as it was in Palladium.

I still disagree with the resisted rolls, I think there are plenty of opportunities for resisted rolls but the system provides no built-in mechanism for it. Resisted rolls weren't big when the books came out, but again, they've never made real improvments to the system, which makes me sad.

Atttribute Checks: It works for a 3-18/24 based attributes, but it's not hard in those games to get very high stats, especially in Rifts/TMNT, where 4 and 5d6 attributes aren't uncommon. It's not a bad system I suppose, but it does feel like a kind of weak substitute for actual skill checks. I just wish more of the rolls followed in the footsteps of flying (the one skill that went over 98% and had a good set of manuvers/modifers/etc).

Charmander said:

I can't comment on that latter point, all I know is that I have run into a few nifty (word of the week for me) sites that had new Martial Arts for N&SS.

This site has been online for years: kuseru.com/
Check out the PMAN - it's awesome.

Charmander said:

I am not into creating too many house rules anymore either. I am just glad that I do possess a sufficiently adequate set of house rules for Rifts.

Charmander said:

No can do. At that point it doesn't become an opposed math test between players and GM. At that point it becomes a series of Awareness tests for the GM as the players try to exploit holes in the system which I as the GM would plug with house rules as they open up. You got to have a vision of the world you are creating and then you tailor the numbers accordingly. If necessary I'll adjust an earlier house rule to shut a power gamer down.

Charmander said:

Believe the auto dodge isn't a problem in N&SS. These fights revolve around melee anyway and there you have auto parry and it evens out between all. Auto dodge if at all helps against mercenaries who have guns who can do obscene amounts of damage.

In Rifts only the Juicer has auto dodge and he needs it because he is frail against power armours. And again the -6 against lasers is going to mean he is going to get hit occasionally.

Charmander said:

But that is so easy to house rule! Here's how it goes: if the opposed test involved two attributes and compare results similar to DoS/DoF in 40K RP. Same if d100 skills are compared to each other. If you compare an attribute and a skill, just apply an appropriate factor to the attribute test dpeending on how high the basic skill is. If the skill for beginning characters is around 55%, you take a factor of 5.

Charmander said:

If you don't like that you can roll a D30. Or to have even more control you use the Harnmaster system: you apply a factor based on difficulty of the test and roll percentile against the result.

Example: the PC has failed his prowl test badly and makes a loud noise. You rule that this gives the guard a factor of 6. He has a MA (or it should be rather IQ, MA was the attribute we used previously, I believe) of 13 which is way above average. Therefore he needs to roll 78 or lower to hear the noise.

One doesn't have to be a math major to come up with such ad hoc. With an average attribute for humans of 10, a factor of 5 gives you a 50% chance to succeed. Factor based systems work sufficiently well in many circumstances (not all tho because no system is perfect). If the PC had failed narrowly, the factor might have been 2 instead.

Alex

ak-73 said:

It always struck me as a bizarre and crazy mish-mash of the worst parts of level-based systems, combined with the worst parts of percentile, combined with an action system that made no sense! For me, Cyberpunk was a much better system in every way. Or even Spacemaster if I was feeling masochistic. That's a good comparison in fact: If I wanted a level-based percentile system, I'd pick up ICE's games in preference.

My intro to the Palladium system was via Robotech which had the fault of basically not working. You had all these guns on your Mech, but invariably fired about two of them and never bothered with the rest, because there was never a reason to. It must say that it tainted my view of the other systems a bit.

Roleplaying itself is an art, but system design is more of an engineering process. V:tM 1e for example was wonderfully 'arty' in concept, but that failed to hide the fact that the system simply did not function as intended or indeed at all in places. It was a system written by people who just didn't understand statistics and balance, and it kind of ruined the game in many ways. Without good and thematic mechanics games just aren't as good as they should be. And Rifts is what you'd get from cut and shutting a Ford Edsel with Biplane to my mind. A poor system does not result in a poor game, and you can make anything 'good' with a good GM and good players, but it's still starting with a handicap. If I really liked the flavour of Rifts, I'd probably try to use another system entirely.

I'm also not a fan of 'ultra uber' RPGs, which doesn't help. I can't stand superhero games and the power level of Rifts is around that level. It's why I don't like Amber, either.

Siranui said:

Oh, I own most of the stuff that has been released for Cyberpunk and Cyberspace too.

Siranui said:

I've been running Shadowrun for years, I know about dysfunctional mechanics. Exploring them is part of the fun of a game but of course it's a challenge for a GM.

Siranui said:

Well, you can run fairly low-power campaigns in Rifts which is what I actually do. My preference of low level games is also why I like Dark Heresy best from 40K RP.

Alex

have had my blood angel librarian summon in a daemon prince then next round get perils of the warp again and disappear for 4 rounds (luckily) and the daemon prince left as I had ceased to exist, was lucky bunch if rolls for a bad situation