There's something to be said for reversing the semi and full auto rules for multiple hits.
So full auto would get +20, but do one hit per 2 DoS
Semi auto would only be +10, but would be one extra hit per DoS.
This is a lot more realistic and would practically half HB damage.
Garawjukh said:
I think you're absolutely right. I have considered swappingthe bonuses for semi/auto fire, but that doesn;t really do the trick. There should also be some sort of incentive for using burst fire, which is horribly neglected in my games. It seems like semi-auto would increase your chances of hitting at least once due to a tight shot group (sort of like the 3-round mode on an M16), while full-auto would be a 'spray and pray' mode for suppression or firing blind.
Yeah, I put that out as a general idea. I'm sure it will need tweaking but the basis for my whole thought is that full auto fire should be harder to hit with than single or semi and it should waste most of the shots. Thats what real automatic weapons do. You fire a 10 round burst from a MG or Assault Rifle even the best marksmen at 50m or less will be lucky to hit with 2 or 3 rounds. MGs and Automatic fire is meant to be suppressive in nature, not necessarily the killing force. Its to suppress until flankers can kill.
Anyways, I think I'm on to it with whats the problem, its just going to take some play testing to get the right recipe. Let me know if you have any luck.
Siranui said:
There's something to be said for reversing the semi and full auto rules for multiple hits.
So full auto would get +20, but do one hit per 2 DoS
Semi auto would only be +10, but would be one extra hit per DoS.
This is a lot more realistic and would practically half HB damage.
I wholeheartedly agree with this, in fact I might run it this way from now on. if I do I will make all full auto where the number of shots fired is 6 or more as suppressive fire. so a Heavy Bolter will find it hard to do lots of damage, but will cause the foe to take pinning tests and stuff whenever it fires
BrotherWill said:
Thats what real automatic weapons do. You fire a 10 round burst from a MG or Assault Rifle even the best marksmen at 50m or less will be lucky to hit with 2 or 3 rounds.
Although with reduced charge gyrojet rounds, fired from a massively heavy weapon, held in a vice-like steady grip by someone superhumanly strong, that might not be the case. If you can ensure the weapon is steady, there's no need for autofire to be inaccurate.
Maybe the real issue isn't with AF rules in general but the accumulation of To-Hit bonuses. The character's own skill plus any talents, range modifiers, size modifiers, horde modifiers and weapon upgrades can easily lead to an extremely high accuracy in certain situations, which results in more full-auto shots hitting a target. I still consider this more or less realistic as I can see how it should get hard to miss when your targets are literally lining up a stone's throw away, but at the same time I can see this getting un-fun for the players...
The scaling degrees would be one option, although I have to say that this makes the heavy bolter look useful only for suppression as ordinary boltguns with 4 round bursts have an almost equal chance of scoring the same number of hits whilst wasting much less ammo. Instead, how about capping the maximum bonus a player can get to his BS Test?
Alternatively, picking up on Charmander's line of thoughts, one could try to modify Full Auto in the same way that Horde rules simplify a creature's stats - as in not adding damage bonus to every shot but rather come up with a way of adding a lower bonus to the total damage?
Or just use DH bolt weapon damage. In the end you have to choose - do you want an action movie, or challenging enemies that stay alive longer and thus need to be taken on by more than one player?
Personally I've just adapted my running style around the autofire rules and learned to live within the bounds of the system. While nerfing the bolt weapons a smidge (which I did both because the HB is in fact ridiculous and to bring the bolts in line with other gear in the armory) I fully anticipate my players to blow the crap out of things. When I play with greatly reduced damage I find the themes described in say the SM Codex of a squad/company of marines turning the tide in a fight harder to convey. And for my players, they expect to be the chamber militant, the guys called in when the fighting is too hot for throne agents; as such they want their marines to be bigger and badder than the ones from the last campaign.
When I want an enemy to survive more than one round, I build the enemey and the encounter so that it can- use the world, make the enemies smart, use the rules. Then custom build your bad guys to fit your players, give him traits, attributes, and tactics that will challenge them.
Epic level games (which DW is) are considerably harder to run than low level ones- it's a fact in every RPG, novel, movie, or video game out there. Creating a feeling of power mixed with fear will never be an easy task.
Charmander said:
Personally I've just adapted my running style around the autofire rules and learned to live within the bounds of the system. While nerfing the bolt weapons a smidge (which I did both because the HB is in fact ridiculous and to bring the bolts in line with other gear in the armory) I fully anticipate my players to blow the crap out of things. When I play with greatly reduced damage I find the themes described in say the SM Codex of a squad/company of marines turning the tide in a fight harder to convey. And for my players, they expect to be the chamber militant, the guys called in when the fighting is too hot for throne agents; as such they want their marines to be bigger and badder than the ones from the last campaign.
When I want an enemy to survive more than one round, I build the enemey and the encounter so that it can- use the world, make the enemies smart, use the rules. Then custom build your bad guys to fit your players, give him traits, attributes, and tactics that will challenge them.
Epic level games (which DW is) are considerably harder to run than low level ones- it's a fact in every RPG, novel, movie, or video game out there. Creating a feeling of power mixed with fear will never be an easy task.
Let me summarize part of the problem:
DH:
Boltgun 1d10+5 Pen 4, Average Soak: 14.5 (not accounting for other factors)
Heavy Bolter: 2d10 Pen 5 Average Soak: 16
DW:
Boltgun 2d10+5 Pen 5, Average Soak: 21
Heavy Bolter: 2d10+10 Pen 6 Average Soak: 27
Now the huge difference in DW is probably due to the Storm Bolter but it's too high nonetheless. You can afford to narrow that gap a bit without the Storm Bolter becoming better than the HB. You just need to rule that a single double hit by the SB doesn't cause 2 hits on a horde but one hit with a double chance to wound (one horde member gets hit by two bullets impacting close to each other).
Alex
Siranui said:
BrotherWill said:
Thats what real automatic weapons do. You fire a 10 round burst from a MG or Assault Rifle even the best marksmen at 50m or less will be lucky to hit with 2 or 3 rounds.
Although with reduced charge gyrojet rounds, fired from a massively heavy weapon, held in a vice-like steady grip by someone superhumanly strong, that might not be the case. If you can ensure the weapon is steady, there's no need for autofire to be inaccurate.
While that all is true, keep in mind that the caliber of the weapon is ridiculous and that said Marine is firing a weapons designed to be mounted on a tripod or vehicle from the hip. I just don't see what amounts to a modern day Mk 19 being fired from the hip having no recoil, I don't care how big the guy is. Recoils absorption is more about mass than strength.
Lynata said:
I still consider this more or less realistic as I can see how it should get hard to miss when your targets are literally lining up a stone's throw away, but at the same time I can see this getting un-fun for the players...
I agree when it comes to shooting at a mob, but when all 10 HB rounds from one burst hit the same guy? Well....
BrotherWill said:
All depends on how the To-Hit bonuses came to be.
Do people in your games really roll that high all the time? I mean, for 10 degrees of success you'd need to get the total of BS + any bonuses beyond 100, and that's when rolling a 1! >_>
Lynata said:
BrotherWill said:
If said guy is a Hive Tyrant ...
All depends on how the To-Hit bonuses came to be.
Do people in your games really roll that high all the time? I mean, for 10 degrees of success you'd need to get the total of BS + any bonuses beyond 100, and that's when rolling a 1! >_>
As someone stated earlier, a lot of players who play Devs will boost their BS as high as possible as fast as possible. Its not uncommon to see BS in the 70s. This easily can push it up into the 100s. Say target is wihtin 75m (vast majority of fire fights wind up less than 75m away) this puts it at short range (+10), full auto (+20), say Hive Tyrant (enormous +20). That right there, if its a clear day no other mods is a 120. That means a roll of 50 is seven out of 10 hits at 75m. Thats a bit ridiculous IMHO. Granted, there may be other factors, but this isn't a unbelievable scenario either.
True, true ... not to mention that most(?) Devastators get a further +10 when they're in cover, and if they're real lucky they have a further +5 from armour history, and then maybe another +5 from their Chapter, and a Motion Predictor for another +10 ... it does add up, I guess.
Lynata said:
True, true ... not to mention that most(?) Devastators get a further +10 when they're in cover, and if they're real lucky they have a further +5 from armour history, and then maybe another +5 from their Chapter, and a Motion Predictor for another +10 ... it does add up, I guess.
I don't think 'most' have Immovable Warrior. I think that Unrelenting Devastation is pretty much a hands-down favorite on these forums.
BrotherWill said:
As someone stated earlier, a lot of players who play Devs will boost their BS as high as possible as fast as possible. Its not uncommon to see BS in the 70s. This easily can push it up into the 100s. Say target is wihtin 75m (vast majority of fire fights wind up less than 75m away) this puts it at short range (+10), full auto (+20), say Hive Tyrant (enormous +20). That right there, if its a clear day no other mods is a 120. That means a roll of 50 is seven out of 10 hits at 75m. Thats a bit ridiculous IMHO. Granted, there may be other factors, but this isn't a unbelievable scenario either.
That's why the design of the combat encounter becomes key here- put that horde or what have you in cover, make only part of it visible, don't have the hive tyrant in a field, make it something other than a clear day, have the tyrant dodge, have more than one enemy on the field engaging the PCs at a time, etc. Change up the rules if the lack of realism (which it's definitely a lack of realism) offends your sensibilities (no offense meant here, there are plenty of other things I houserule for similar reasons, this just isn't one of them)
ak-73 said:
Now the huge difference in DW is probably due to the Storm Bolter but it's too high nonetheless. You can afford to narrow that gap a bit without the Storm Bolter becoming better than the HB. You just need to rule that a single double hit by the SB doesn't cause 2 hits on a horde but one hit with a double chance to wound (one horde member gets hit by two bullets impacting close to each other).
Out of curiosity (glad you get to test out all these theories for me while my game group continues to meet less and less often
), how do you deal with the SB against individual creatures. Would making it twin-linked (yeah I know it's not a twin linked weapon but no one in DW that I know of actually uses twin linked bolters, so I'm talking mechanics here) worked to keep it out of the 'omg it's a jr heavy bolter'?
Though renown requirements for a storm bolter and the req requirements put it close to the HB anyhow...
If you go with:
Semi-Auto = +10, +1 hit per DoS
Full Auto = +20, +1 hit per 2 DoS
Storm can now simply change Full Auto to +1 hit per DoS. I'd also change the RoF of the Storm Bolter to -/-/4 to make the standard Bolter attractive for allowing more firing options.
Charmander said:
ak-73 said:
Now the huge difference in DW is probably due to the Storm Bolter but it's too high nonetheless. You can afford to narrow that gap a bit without the Storm Bolter becoming better than the HB. You just need to rule that a single double hit by the SB doesn't cause 2 hits on a horde but one hit with a double chance to wound (one horde member gets hit by two bullets impacting close to each other).
Out of curiosity (glad you get to test out all these theories for me while my game group continues to meet less and less often
), how do you deal with the SB against individual creatures. Would making it twin-linked (yeah I know it's not a twin linked weapon but no one in DW that I know of actually uses twin linked bolters, so I'm talking mechanics here) worked to keep it out of the 'omg it's a jr heavy bolter'?
Though renown requirements for a storm bolter and the req requirements put it close to the HB anyhow...
It's no necessary to make it twin-linked. The difference between Storm and twin-linked lies in the distance between the barrels. A small distance means if one shot hits, the other should hit too. A wider gap means that only one will hit but there is a greater likelihood of it.
How to deal with the Storm Bolter? Reduce damage for bolt weapons. Then how will your SB hurt a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant except light wounds? And yeah if you pour Mighty Shot, Bolter Drill and Kraken/Vengeance rounds (+Bolter Mastery) I am fine if it does some damage. Under such circumstances the SB should do some good.
Alex
Lynata said:
how about capping the maximum bonus a player can get to his BS Test?
Or just use DH bolt weapon damage. In the end you have to choose - do you want an action movie, or challenging enemies that stay alive longer and thus need to be taken on by more than one player?
It's already capped at +60. Likr everything is capped at +60.
Use more bad guys, maybe? It's not like you're limited to how many you're allowed to use. So what if the party blow away 200 Horde points in one turn?Does it matter: You've got more!
BrotherWill: Yes: It's a massive calibre. Yet people still manage to fire 40mm grenade launchers with ease. And it's hardly a punishing rate of fire, either. There needs to be enough charge to shove it out of the barrel and for a couple of yards, and that's it. Heck: There barely needs to be any recoil at all.
How are players 'easily' getting BS of 70, Unless they're BSing? 46+ BS is about a 20% chance on an honest die roll, +5 BS if you happen to be a Dark Angel or Ultramarine successor, and then the full +20. So only 20% of characters from the right chapter who poured max XP into BS have it. That's not really very 'common', unless you play with people who cheat.
Lynata: You're picking bonuses out of the air. I have never known anyone NOT take unrelenting devastation, and he'd already added the +5 Chapter bonus. If we're going to do maths, can we at least be realistic about it, and make sure it's right?
Siranui said:
getting BS of 70, Unless they're BSing? 46+ BS is about a 20% chance on an honest die roll, +5 BS if you happen to be a Dark Angel or Ultramarine successor, and then the full +20. So only 20% of characters from the right chapter who poured max XP into BS have it. That's not really very 'common', unless you play with people who cheat.
There still is the option of distributing ability points instead of rolling them. That's RAW, not cheating.
Siranui said:
Lynata said:
how about capping the maximum bonus a player can get to his BS Test?
Or just use DH bolt weapon damage. In the end you have to choose - do you want an action movie, or challenging enemies that stay alive longer and thus need to be taken on by more than one player?
It's already capped at +60. Likr everything is capped at +60.
Use more bad guys, maybe? It's not like you're limited to how many you're allowed to use. So what if the party blow away 200 Horde points in one turn?Does it matter: You've got more!
BrotherWill: Yes: It's a massive calibre. Yet people still manage to fire 40mm grenade launchers with ease. And it's hardly a punishing rate of fire, either. There needs to be enough charge to shove it out of the barrel and for a couple of yards, and that's it. Heck: There barely needs to be any recoil at all.
How are players 'easily' getting BS of 70, Unless they're BSing? 46+ BS is about a 20% chance on an honest die roll, +5 BS if you happen to be a Dark Angel or Ultramarine successor, and then the full +20. So only 20% of characters from the right chapter who poured max XP into BS have it. That's not really very 'common', unless you play with people who cheat.
Lynata: You're picking bonuses out of the air. I have never known anyone NOT take unrelenting devastation, and he'd already added the +5 Chapter bonus. If we're going to do maths, can we at least be realistic about it, and make sure it's right?
1. You are not figuring bonuses from squad mode abilities (+20 BS from Strongpoint, for example) nor equipment like Signum (Link). In fact at mid levels, it's possible to go far beyond BS 70.
2. You now know someone who has not picked UD: me. I chose Immovable Warrior for my Crimson Fists Dev (it fits more the Fists) and I do have a PA that gives +5 to BS. Don't ignore Tacs with Bolter Mastery either.
Alex
Umbranus said:
Siranui said:
getting BS of 70, Unless they're BSing? 46+ BS is about a 20% chance on an honest die roll, +5 BS if you happen to be a Dark Angel or Ultramarine successor, and then the full +20. So only 20% of characters from the right chapter who poured max XP into BS have it. That's not really very 'common', unless you play with people who cheat.
There still is the option of distributing ability points instead of rolling them. That's RAW, not cheating.
Umbranus said:
Siranui said:
getting BS of 70, Unless they're BSing? 46+ BS is about a 20% chance on an honest die roll, +5 BS if you happen to be a Dark Angel or Ultramarine successor, and then the full +20. So only 20% of characters from the right chapter who poured max XP into BS have it. That's not really very 'common', unless you play with people who cheat.
There still is the option of distributing ability points instead of rolling them. That's RAW, not cheating.
And commonly the case.
Even with random gen, does the guy who rolled 10 for his BS choose to be a devastator, or is it the guy who rolled 18-20?
But that's we're straying off the line little, I don't see problem with a HB Dev being good against hordes, it's pretty much a given, but they haven't gimped themselves against other targets either. Against you're big bad, regularly scoring about 5 hits and a chance of 10 (even a 10% chance) that none of the other characters get a chance of. And with 3 damage die per hit that's a lot of RF's comming out on top of a very good damage.
It is because the full auto rules are very favourable, perhaps the damage is somewhat high for an autofire weapon. But what I do know is that other weapons have terrible stat's, absolutely terrible. These include, but are not limited to: DH beyond absolute spod weapons, krak grenades, HB etc; ALL plasma weapons and melta weapons.
And finally, the master bosses have rubbish stats. Making it so you need RF to hurt them with a standard bolter is not out side the realms of possibly, given the amount of hits you'll be scoreing, plus there are specific ammo types for certain things that are completely wasted because you never need them and of course, there is always the option to take different weapons (which normally need buffing to be worth it).
Siranui said:
BrotherWill: Yes: It's a massive calibre. Yet people still manage to fire 40mm grenade launchers with ease. And it's hardly a punishing rate of fire, either. There needs to be enough charge to shove it out of the barrel and for a couple of yards, and that's it. Heck: There barely needs to be any recoil at all.
[/QU
Not at a fully auto rate of fire. Granted, Bolter is a bit different from 40mm, however I think the muzzle energy is similar. 40mm kicks like a 12 gauge from a single shot shoulder launcher. From a Mk19, its a different round with a hell of a lot more propellant, there is no firing a Mk19 from anything other than a vehicle/tripod mount. As I stated though, Iunderstand they are two different weapons, I think thats the only thing we have now thats even remotely comparable. In addition, everything I've read in the rules tells me it kicks like a mofo, otherwise, why would you need to brace it?
How are players 'easily' getting BS of 70, Unless they're BSing? 46+ BS is about a 20% chance on an honest die roll, +5 BS if you happen to be a Dark Angel or Ultramarine successor, and then the full +20. So only 20% of characters from the right chapter who poured max XP into BS have it. That's not really very 'common', unless you play with people who cheat.
4000xp to rank 2 and its 3200 xp to max out their Devs BS advancement (thats a +20 right there). BS40 (avg roll) +20 advancement + 5 Dark Angel, +5 from Armor=+70 BS at Rank 1. Granted, not easy to get the Armor, so say 65. Still pretty dang high. If he rolled good it could of been 75 due to base BS50. The point is, it doesn't take long to get into really ridiculous stats if the player wants to, not even rank 2 to do it.
EDIT: Sorry my quotes are not showing up properly. I thought I understood the syntax
but its not working properly. If anyone could correct me on that I would appreciate it.and
Granted, power armour likely does a lot to mitigate recoil. If a heavy bolter's accuracy would truly suck, the Emperor's elite wouldn't lug them around on foot but keep them limited to vehicles and tripods.
On a sidenote: How about keeping special ammunition limited to pistols and boltguns? You could easily justify it with the stuff being too valuable/rare for a support weapon. RoF vs versatility.
Lynata said:
...
On a sidenote: How about keeping special ammunition limited to pistols and boltguns? You could easily justify it with the stuff being too valuable/rare for a support weapon. RoF vs versatility.
but special ammo for a heavy bolter already costs increased Req, which should cover its value/rarity. (edit: i would assume that Req+5 would be the cost for a standard HB clip of 60. A backpack feed of 250 rounds should cost around 4x that) The tradeoff I assume would indeed be the versatility, as a Devastator would likely only have the one backpack filled with a single ammo type. Any other ammo types carried for versatility would have to be in separate clips - which would cost valuable time to load in the heat of combat
As for the req. cost for backpack ammo, it's in the errata:
Special Issue Ammunition (page 159): The last sentence
of the description of Special Issue Ammunition should be
changed to read: “Special issue ammunition for Heavy Bolters
adds +5 to the Requisition for a regular clip or +15 if an Astartes
Backpack Ammo supply is used.”
And while I'm at it:
Special Issue Ammunition (page 159): The correct
requisition cost for Kraken rounds is 15, not 5.