Siranui said:

Let's just pretend the quoting stuff worked right...

Not every mission requires the Dev to take a heavy weapon just as not every mission calls upon the Ass to take his jump pack. The Dev can also function as a sniper operating far from the center of the team. In this, they most certainly can act as a scout (they can be just about as stealthy as other marines despite a slow Agility progression, and they have an excellent Perception progression) and can silence guards just fine from far off. The role is certainly different from an Assault Marine, but I wouldn't call it horribly restrictive any more than that of any of the specialties.

HappyDaze said:

Devastators are in fact the sniper base specialty.

Alex

ak-73 said:

The one I ran back in 40k was just a Codex Captain with Termie Honours, DW honours and special ammo, power sword and an iron halo (4th ed codex-not current Codex Ultramarines) or a deathwatch captain with kill team from the chapter approved article that was published in white dwarf. In our later campaings he had chapter master stats (just an extra wound and Ld10 back then) and terminator armour.

For Deathwatch I looked at building him in his early DW captain form using a modded Imperial Fist Tactical Marine with +5 T + 5WP instead of the usual +10WP, but no matter what I come up with I can not make a character that can take do what my captain did.

Banjulhu said:

I think you're looking at this from a funny angle. You don't start with any of that because you start at rank 1. You don't start the game with terminator honors, you don't start as the Watch Captain, you don't start with an Iron Halo, you are not part of your first company. You build up to being the end all be all of marines- if you didn't, where is your advancement? Consider not playing him as a 'young captain', but as a 'promising sergeant.'

Charmander said:

Yeah, you got to level him up to Rank 5. Then he is a young Captain. Before that he is on his way to Captaincy. At Rank 1 he should be at about Sternguard level.

Alex

Charmander said:

It was me feeling out the system to see what can be done rather than creating an actual playable character, I wanred to see if it would be possible to ever have a DW captain in the RPG be like his table top equivalent, the answer to which is no, if a tactical marine/captain of pretty much any rank wielding a powersword walks upto something as basic as a tyranid warrior he is very likely going to have his arse handed to him.

I gave up on that idea and created a Blood Drinker Librarian in the end. Jump Pack and Smite feels like a good combination.

Banjulhu said:

I'd respectfully disagree- at higher ranks you can req some amazing wargear and some very powerful talents, making you more than a match for a Tyranid Warrior. If you're making a melee character, your strength bonus will easily be over 12 by rank 8, probably closer to 16 to 18+, before you even look at the weapon damage. Even with a chainsword you're looking at 25 damage per hit on a an average swing. Then tack on swift/lightning attack plus some additional melee talents and that guy's 25-30 wounds will be torn up in no time.

Though that Librarian Jump Pack combo sounds like it could be pretty interesting

Charmander said:

A tactical marine pays 500 for his first stength bonus will get to S60 on average when all advances are bought taking him to about SB 14 overall when in power armour. he will only get swift attack at rank 7 and no two weapon wielder melee which means one attack per round for most of the games. With a power sword he will do d10 + 6 + 14 so 25 damage on average so against a warrior (TB 10 AP 8) that is 12 damge out of 48 wounds. A warrior in return can make upto 4 1d10+12 pen 5/10 (variable) damage rolls per turm.

Banjulhu said:

If that Tactical Marine is a Dark Angel or a Space Wolf and wants to pay 300xp to take Ritual Duel Fighter, he can start the game with Swift Attack. If it's that import to him. I'd still rather be shooting my bolter at things like a Tyranid Warrior than risking melee.

Banjulhu said:

Okay, let's make one thing clear: the DW Tactical marine is not the same as a normal Tactical. The specialties in DW are DW battlefield roles and do not reflect prior experience or rank of a Space Marine. That means specialites signify in which manner a given SM plans to contribute to the DW. A DW Assault Marine may previously have been a Salamander Tactical.

So what you got to do to build your Captain is to make a choice what he should excel in. Shooting? Use the DW Dev. Melee? Use the DW Assault. Leadership or Jack-Of-All-Trades? Use the Tactical.

However if you choose a DW Tactical who comes from a non-melee chapter, you cannot expect him to excel in melee combat. Not without elite advances (which are a serious possibility/necessity if you want to build a well-rounded character).

So if your Salamander Captain has a preference, choose according to that preference. If you want him to excel at everything, you will need Elite Advances.

Do not surprised that this is so in DW - if you could build a cc monster and a super-duper shooter in DW without elite advances about every player would go for that. Don't forget that it's a game and it has been set up so that every PC has his area of specialization.

If you want a Salamander Captain who is great a melee and at least decent at shooting, build him around the DW Assault Marine, I say. He can have been a Tactical before that at the Salamanders, that's no contradiction. Assault Marines aren't the greatest of shooters unless you are willing to spend lots of XP but they can be decent, especially if you allocate your best roll to BS.

Alex

PS The other alternative are deeds and distinctions to give your PC Swift Attack, etc.

Banjulhu said:

Oddly, when I statted the protagonist from some of my fiction as a 1st level D&D character, he was a bit disappointing, too.

And yes: Tactical marines do suck in melee. They are only fractionally better than Devs, and are not all-rounders. Most things tend to look pretty bad in melee though against the most melee-specialised xeno race in the game universe. If you want melee, stat as an AM.

As to a 4e comparison [*spits*], then the Dev is a striker and the AM perhaps more of a tank class. Although a tank class with pretty fearsome offensive capabilities, too. Once again: An AM is far more survivable. Even at range, due to that extra reaction.

If a Dev picks up a sniper weapon, then he's not unbalancing things. The problem is only cited when he has a HB, and carrying an HB has all of the disadvantages I mentioned.

Not to get back on subject or anything, but aren't we overlooking the fact that a Daemon Prince has the Daemonic trait and therefore doubles TB against normal weapons? You'd be shooting a 2d10+10 heavy bolter through 12 armor + (12 x 2 TB) = 36 total mitigation, -6 pen =30, so a round from a heavy bolter won't normally penetrate unless you get Righteous Fury.

Private Jackson said:

Garawjukh said:

I'm fairly certain that the TB of 12 in the stat block is already accounting for the doubled toughness bonus. I don't tink they're getting 6 squared for their toughness bonus (though personally I wouldn't be opposed to it, and for a really scary DP or a greater demon that might make sense).

I'm pretty sure Private Jackson's interpretation is RAW. DPs are fierce enemies, but they have to engage the marines in a clever way and try really hard not to get caught out in the open. The Elites and Masters are usually enemies that have horde boosting powers and minions.

And FWIW, if epic single combat is your deal and you want to simulate that, simply tweak the rules to allow higher toughness, armor, or wounds for the bad guys. Personally I'm a fan of Alex's damage modifiers and RoF modifiers- keeps the marines pretty uber and lets me have a couple extra rounds with my bad guys.

Charmander said:

If you go by the base Tougness of 45, it should be getting A TB of 8, x2 for Unnatural Toughness = 16, x2 against normal weapons = 32 TB. +12 armor = 44, which is even more durable.

I'm not sure where the stat block is getting +12 as a TB. But past creatures with the Daemonic trait have not had this doubling figured into their stats.

Either way you slice it, the DP should be getting more protection vs. a heavy bolter than is reflected in that example.

Garawjukh said:

There is no doubtling of doubles in 40K RP. Instead you should see this as levels of facors. Unnatural Toughness(2) gives you a Factor of +1. If you'd get another Unnatural Toughness(2) from another source, you'd normally get another Factor+1 for a total of Unnatural Tougness(3). Which why the DP has the stats it has.

See page 136.

In general the values of creatues in 40K RP include all non-circumstantial modifiers. That's why you shouldn't adjust for such talents like mighty shot - they have already been figured into weapon damages, etc. Same here with TB.

Alex

You could always tweak the DP's Toughness up to 55 or 65.

A 55 would get you a TB of 15, with a 65 getting you an 18.

Slight stat tweak = sizable power difference.

ak-73 said:

Aah, I see, that does explain the math then.

Then I amend my statement to say: Yes, heavy bolters mowing down Daemon princes is a bit...off.

Garawjukh said:

Please direct your query to prior threads regarding HB power levels

The trick is either slightly tweaking your adversaries as Uncertain suggests, or playing them smart. If you want them to be powerful, play them like a PC. If you were a player, and going up against a squad of marines armed to the teeth, how would you approach it? You'd leverage your horde powers to distract them and eat up their ammo as well as provide you a handy meatshield, close within charge distance of the biggest threat (likley the dev or the lib), charge and unleash the fury on them. One does not simply walk into Mordor, and all that.

Charmander said:

I think this is actually the key thing to remember about the enemies in 40K. They aren't dumb, bosses or troops. Even hive gangs know better than to stand in the middle of an open room and get shot at. Use cover, concealment, and tactics. Make your players work for a victory.

ItsUncertainWho said:

If they get behind cover, they'll eat a frag or two. Unless they bring lots of autopistols those hive gangers are hosed.

Alex

Siranui said:

Speaking as the devastator in above mention, our dm let me get acrobatics because he is awesome and very agreeable after i buy him pizza =). But seriously, my char spent 3 months in game time being taught by our BA assault marine how to use acrobatics. I discussed this with our dm and he agreed that the rp justified the elite advance. I have a 43 agi, so a low chance to pull it off. Usually I don't even have to use acrobatics because of the tactics our kt employs. We each do our jobs. The tac marine (scout sniper spec) takes out the dodges of the big things. Brother Postilus, our AM keeps things from getting in our faces. I blast stuff, and brother xandarian doesn't show up =). Our dm has put us in situations where i can't escape with disengage also, thats why i carry a bolt pistol. As far as the back flips with a heavy bolter, I agree, that's absurd. I picture it as more of a faking left and going right kind of thing.

Also, any BA can take acrobatics. Why would you not take a suspensor with the HB?

Oni San said:

Yes, so BAs and AMs can get it; I'd consider that fairly uncommon for marines

As for the suspensor, you might opt to leav it behind because it's 25 req that you may want or need to spend on something else

TBH I still consider the big bads such as the Hive Tyrant and Deamon Prince woefully under-powered. Can you imagine when the Grey Knights turn up:

GK: Where's the DP guy's

DW: Dead

GK: Dead? Already?

DW: Yep, shot him with a heavy bolter.

GK: With a... Not even a Psycannon.

DW: Nah. Didn't need it.

GK: Oh, right. We'll just go then.

If an SM can laugh off shots from lowly Heretics and Termagants (provided they ain't a horde) then surely a HT or a DP can take light SM weapons (and yes I know we are talking about HB's but the fact that standard bolter can hurt him without RF is part part of the problem) until someone gets some RF (which happens all the time) or, Emporer forbid, is actually forced to use specialist ammo.

As for they need to be surrounded by hordes to be a danger to rank 1 SM's. When did that happen? That's what you can do for higher ranked groups sure, but at least maybe make the PC's think about trying some tactics to get the big guy on his own and it still being a fight.

Just cap the maximum damage per attack to it that can be done with 'normal' weapons.

It's usually better to just make monsters tougher than it is to nerf players. Instead of taking away something, you're allowing your players to kill even tougher foes. One of those things makes players feel good, and the other makes them feel bad.

Face Eater said:

DW: Yeah, order us some pizza.

FWIW, I ran the Heavy Bolter against a Rhino's front armour this morning. (Heavy Bolter + mighty shot, no specialty ammo) The result was that each of the 50 simulated hits did 2.2 damage points on average, not accounting for RF. Chance for RF was scored on 19 out of the 50 hits. If you assume validation chance of 80% for RF, the average damage that RF adds is about 1.8.

In total that means the HB plus a Devastator who has Mighty Shot (should be the normal, common case) will frag a Rhino through it's front armour if he can score really many hits, but more importantly he'll kill it almost certainly with its 2nd attack. From the front.

Sounds OP? Yep. With Kraken rounds you do 6 damage per hit. Rank 2 Tactical with Bolter Mastery and Mighty Shot will do 8 per hit and score an additional hit due to +10 to hit. Which means: one attack and you Rhino is toast.

So by how much should the HB be nerfed, guys, if you look at this data? You could of course up the armour but then the Lascannon would start to suck even more. Btw, do you think the Lascannon could need a bit more Pen?

Alex