Is it me or does the talents you get as a devastator suck?

Combat formation - whats this do ? If your lucky maybe give you a +1 or +2 to the initiative?

Crack shot - +2 to crit damage? I dont know how you guys play this game but when a mob goes to 0 they are dead in our game( enemies dont go into the crits in our game)

die hard - when you suffer blood loss? Help me on this one please. Where do we die from blood loss? In the charts im reading pretty much when you get to 8 on the crit charts you are pretty much dead and not from blood loss but from lossing body parts. Plus we dont suffer from blood loss)m larraman's organ)

ironjaw - How often are you stunned? We are playing with 8 PC in our game and have been playing for 2 months now and not one of us were ever stunned yet

I just feel this talent tree kind of sucks for this class. Am I over looking something with these talents or am i right about how crappie they are?

For the first two, I think they are more useful against elites/masters

a +1/2 on Init cam mean the difference between pasting the boss across the landscape, or vice versa, or blowing away have the chaos space marines and suddenly having a 2:! outnumbering advantage.

Secondly, against the Hive tyrant, you want to pump it into the red as fast as possible. Devo's don't HAVE to be about hordes.

A few of them may not be uber, and I agree Die Hard is pretty lame, but I don't find the others that bad. Crack Shot is very good against masters and elites if your GM uses crit tables (I don't use it for chumps, but I definitely use it for signature characters) where that +2 is a big deal. Iron Jaw only sucks if your GM doesn't use stunning (no one uses takedown on you, or psychic powers, shocking weapons?). Devs also pick up things like Mighty Shot, Deadeye shot, cleanse and purify, target selection, bolter drill, etc. I don't see them as that bad.

poohbear said:

Though it's probably because I resolve Righteous Fury differently to the rulebook or the errata, stunning actually comes up a lot for my group, and I think my group's Devastator is looking at Iron Jaw very seriously, particularly after that Venom Cannon hit that nearly killed him last night...

poohbear said:

Look down everyone else's list. It's not all sweetness and fairycakes there, either. Some talents just aren't that great for everyone, all the time.

Luckily, there's more than enough other stuff to spend XP on.

And if you haven't been stunned yet, your GM needs to shoot you more, and bring out the Shocking weapons.

poohbear said:

Really no. It has some of the most obviously useful talents of all the specialities. Ok, all the Initiative talents strike me as being a bit... dull, though that is true of all those talents (which other people have). Do remember it can be beneficial to everyone who has got a low agility bonus (though intelligence is just as expensive as agility for a Devastator... so it seems an odd choice).

Crack shot has no effect against Hordes, yes, but against singular targets it is useful (though I find the ordering of Mighty Shot and Crack shot interesting. In Dark Heresy you got the Bonus Critical talents first, and then the flat damage bonus ones second). Now, if your group doesn't use critical damage then yes it is pointless, but that is a consequence of deliberately ignoring a core part of the rules, not the talent itself being useless.

Die Hard does strike me as being... a bit pointless, yes. It only applies against warp weapons (the only things that cause blood loss). Personally don't understand the choice of that one.

Iron Jaw? Great if you get stunned. If you ever get into critical damage (happens a lot in my game) you often get stunning as a result. Special attacks also can stun you. Now, Space Marines in power armour only get stunned for one turn, but due to how crippling (and irritating) being stunned is that can be the difference between only suffering critical damage before you smack your enemy in the face or dying.

What have you not mentioned: Cleanse and Purify, Mighty Shot, Deadeye Shot, Bolter Drill, Hip Shooting, Target Selection, Marksman, Storm of Iron, Sharpshooter, Eye of Vengence, and even (if a bit late) Swift Attack. Basically all the good shooting talents, plus a couple of extras.

And don't forget that you can still spend xp on characteristics and things from the general advancement tables.

poohbear said:

the important part about combat formation is that it hat the potential to boost the whole kill team.
And while yes it's just a small boost to initiative (if at all) even that can be helpful.

Combat Formation will only be a boost if your Davastator has a higher Int bonus then they other players has in thier Agility. IE. it replaces the Ag modifyer with int. If you were a Techmarine or Libiran that actualy has a high int then this talant is very usefull.

I have a Rank 1 Techmarine and he has 60 int where as he only has 45 Agi. There it would be very nice to have Combat Formation since everybody in the group get a higher initiative bonus.

Bonedust said:

Guys, you're only looking it from a power-gamer's pov. I play a Crimson Fist on PrimarchX's PbF campaign and as he's a young tactical genious, I am eyeing combat formation very hard, just because it fits the fluff. I also didn't pick Unrelenting Devastation but Immovable Warrior (fits the fists better too).

Heck, Combat Formation might even allow me to invoke my Studious Demeanour and do unholy things, like giving everyone twice my Int Bonus for Initiative.

Alex

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Care to share how you resolve RF in your game, I'm not entirely happy with the way it's done now.

Though it seems like wearing power armor is a good way to not be stunned.

They have (mostly) useless Talent selections because they have a 150m range ' I Win ' button they can use every turn and don't need anything else.

BYE

ak-73 said:

So it might be quite power-gamey, after all.

Combat formation is niche, but can be pretty good. It's just that most characters won't bother, in the same way that anyone who intends never to use a flamer won't get 'cleanse and purify'.

I think the main thing is that it seems an odd choice for a Devastator. Intelligence is one of the most expensive stats to improve (and it is a stat which is not terribly central to its role), and so unless the character devotes a lot of points to it they will probably have a lower Intelligence Bonus than many characters Agility bonus. It makes more sense for Apothecaries or other Intelligence focussed types. And thematically it suits the more leadership type specialties. Of course there is nothing forcing a player to take it, so thats not a problem in itself, it just seems an odd choice.

Siranui said:

And that's okay, Space Marines are supposed to optimize their combat performance. The purpose of the mechanics are to ensure some kind of inner party balance and personally I'd like the Hive Tyrant to be more difficult to take down.

Thus: down with the bolt weapon damages.

Alex

Ah; the old 'I'd be role-playing badly if I didn't optimise; so I'm not power-gaming, I'm role-playing!' line.

j/k

Siranui said:

And it never did hold as much water as with the Emperor's finest.

Alex