After getting a hold of the RoB and looking at the new vehicle rules a certain issue has cropped up concerning how certain skills are handled in the game.

These skills include Pilot, Scholastic lore, and some others that include the (any) option in the advance lists.

The clarification desired is: How are these skills treated? As all the other skills/talents or differently based on the (any). There isn't any specific description in the book hilighting how exactly the skills with the (any) option are treated.

The issue cropped up because I've been wanting to have my PC become pilot for our group. The Thunderhawk and Stormraven are both considered spacecraft but can operate as a flyer and a skimmer. The questions that we had was, does the pilot need one of the 3 skills to operate the craft in the associated mode, or does knowing how to pilot the crafts primary type allow the PC to use it in all modes? Piloting in space is vastly different than in an atmosphere as a flyer and the same goes for skimmers, each requiring their own training and skill-sets. While the T-hawk is a spacecraft it doesn't make much sense that a PC can fly one in atmo simply because he has the skill for the crafts primary type. The problem with needing all 3 skills is the pilot skill is only available once at rank 3.

If treated as all the other skill talents then when you select Pilot(any) at rank three you choose a single group and thats the only time you can buy one and thus the only skill group you can learn. The only thing (any) means is you get to choose the group. Thus a PC can only learn multiple piloting skills via elite advances.

On the other hand it would stand to reason a skill with the (any) option could mean you may choose any of the skill groups associated with that skill each one at the XP cost. I.e. at rank 3 you can choose "any" of the piloting skills each one costing the 800 XP (2400xp for all 3). This way would make sense common sense wise as all of the (any) skills are the type of skills one would expect to be trained on or learn via a training program. Scholastic Lore: classroom training, Pilot/drive: a few weeks training in classroom/simulator/actual craft, speak language: book study and practice, etc... Unlike skills like Forbidden lore: information you wouldn't find in your local library (first hand knowledge and the like) or talents you can't really learn more than once.

Personally I see no reason an Astartes is incapable of learning multiple languages or piloting skills, but if such is not meant to be, c'est la vie. It would, of course, be nice to have this cleared up.

I treat the (any) option in the advancement tables as: buy whatever you like, as often as you like. E.g. Pilot (any) 200 means you can buy as many pilot skills as you want, as long as you pay the price each time.

tkis said:

I think it does mean that, yes.

Alex

tkis said:

Does this also apply to Signature Wargear? Can I it multiple times for 500 xp a pop?

HappyDaze said:

Good try, but no. If going with Happydays' and AK's word Signature wargear still can not be used to purchase multiple items with the same rank advance.

The entry for Signature Wargear does not have an (any) following it in the advance table. It is simply "Signature Wargear".

Any, to my mind, means I can pick any single type, not multiple skills. Skills that can be taken multiple times usually have a x2 or (xWhatever) after it, or some mark to incidcate the maximum times it can be taken. If it has neither of those then you can only take it once. Sure, you can take any of the relevent group, but you can't take them all at the same time and in the same advance, even if you do pay for each instance of the Skill/Talent.

For example, if it said Common Lore (Any) you pick any single Common Lore type, but you couldn't pick every common lore there is paying EXP for each one. if it had Common Lore (Any) x2, then you could pick two Common Lores and buy them each for the price listed.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Except the part that mentions any skills/talents with a multiplier by it only states, "Advances with a multiplier may be purchased multiple times at that Rank, up to a maximum number of times equal to the multiplier." This statement only applies to advances with multipliers. There is no statement (I've found anyways) indicating a skill without a multiplier can be purchased only once. While this is no problem for most skills/talents that quite obviously can only be purchased once (Ciphers (Xenos markings), Hammer Blow, and Hatred (orks) for instance) the problem arises with the ambiguity of the the Skill(any) option. Which is not explained sufficiently in the ruledbook.

As I understand your explanation. It would be similar to going to high school and at grade 9 choosing from Math (basic, algebra, or triganometry). At grade 10 you can pick up +10 to what you chose first but alas you're not smart enough to learn the other two, ever. Which may make sense in a certain rule-set way, but not so much with common sense.

Now I'm not saying your way is wrong, or happy's way is right. I am just looking for an official clarification.

Test.

I hate this board software. Anyway...


"Except the part that mentions any skills/talents with a multiplier by it only states, "Advances with a multiplier may be purchased multiple times at that Rank, up to a maximum number of times equal to the multiplier." This statement only applies to advances with multipliers."

Wow. Way to read something backwards there.

Actually, what that implies is that only those with multipliers can be purchased multiple times (hence multipliers). And if you don't believe me, turn to Page 105 of Rites of Battle and look at the second last Deathwatch Champion upgrade. Sound Constitution. By your logic, as it has no multiplier, you could purchase it as many times as you like. That means you could have as many wounds as you liked, EXP willing.

Does that sound right to you?

Or something from the main rulebook. Page... 82! Actually, 81. On 81 we've got 'Psychic Power (x2)', and then on page 81 'Psychic Power'. It seems that a DW Librarian can only take two powers at Rank 1... but can then take as many as he likes at Rank 2! Wow!!! That's amazing! And if he can take as many as he likes ('cause this no multiplier), why are there other Psychic Powers in later ranks? Then there are those call-out boxes that state you cannot Skills/Talents that you already have at Character Generation. Reading it the way you've done above, that would imply that you can take them again once you hit Rank 2! That doesn't make any sense either.

Any means just that - pick any one of the ones that are there. It doesn't suddenly mean you can pick all of the ones that are there, just one out of any of the available ones.

It goes back to rules being permissive . They have to let you do something. The absence of a specific limitation does not imply that there are no limits. The presence of multipliers instead implies that they are required to take something more than once.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

You're making too complicated by trying to squeeze it into a logical pattern instead of looking it from a viewpoint of common sense. Looking at the Ultramarines chart I have no doubt that Tactics(any) means that the Ultras can buy as many tactics as they want to. And not just one of their choosing. The way to signify that would have been something like Tactics(any one). The (any) skills obviously deviate from the usual pattern of (x2).

Alex

I'm hardly making it ' too complicated '. We have choices that are specifically allowed to be taken multiple times via a (x2) or (x3) multiplier after the advance. This implies that thos without such multipliers can only be taken once. If that wasn't the case, then you could take unlimited Sound Constitutions with some ranks.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

You are making it too complicated by trying to apply a strict logical pattern. If it was intended that the Ultramarine can take all Tactics, would they have labelled it as (x7)? Is that a realistic expectation? Or would they have rather labeled it as Tactics(any), thinking the implied meaning was clear?

Alex

I have always looked at any of the lore skills marked non-specifically as (Any) to mean it can be taken multiple times. While those marked as a specific skill being limited to once. I would rather players have access to and take multiple lore skills than not.

They should have been marked with an asterisk and footnote denoting that they could be taken multiple times, never for the same subject twice.

ItsUncertainWho said:

This is exactly the type of clarification I believe we need. I would tend to agree with this as well. But again the rulebook doesn't indicate how (any) skills are specifically treated.

H.B.M.C. said:

The subject of this topic is (any) skills, not all the skills. Even then, the main rulebook does not include a statement specifically indicating normal skills can only be taken once, nor any statement on how exactly (any) skills should be treated. I've read the sections many times and there is no indication at all. The (any) is just there in the tables and we as gamers are left to our own devices to determine how the option is treated (which would mean neither is wrong, or right). You also seem to miss the point that I am not trying to validate or advocate 'rule-breaking'. Rather I am simply trying to get aclarification on skills with the (any) option.

Of course you can't take a skill or skill group more than once if its options do not allow it. Thats a no-brainer, and I'm insulted you feel I need to be reminded of that fact. "By my logic" I'm talking about (any) skills, not all of them. Its best you understand what another person is talking about before you tell that person what he/she meant. Please keep your responses in accordance with the scope of the topic. Don't bring arguments based on non-issues in to try to shut down another persons argument.

The reason I have a problem with interpreting the (any) option your way can be summed up with an extension of your own argument. If a PC can never take a skill he had at character generation, then a PC can never learn how to fly a skimmer or a walker. You start with the drive (ground vehicles) don't you. Whats the point in including vehicle rules and their vehicles in a supplement if the PCs can never learn to use them. This is where the ambiguity of the (any) option rears its ugly head the loudest. If you can't learn a second drive skill ever, then why include rules to let PCs drive skimmers?

There are only certain skills with the (any) option. And these skills are the type a person could learn multiple times (language, piloting) but our PCs only have one rank advance to purchase it. Common sense then kicks in and seems to indicate the (any) option could work differently than your basic skill options. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what the (any) option means.

No need to figure it out just write a two liner to the support and ask it. Whatever the response might be, i am houseruling (any) as multiples for the same price option.