Hey, new to the community, so I don't know whether or not this has already been done, but I've been working on retooling Deathwatch somewhat to make a CSM version. Right now I've just been focusing on character advancement, but I'd like opinions/input on what I've managed to put together so far.

Advance Table Changes
General:
- Rank 1:
1. Replace “Lore: Common (Adeptus Astartes)” with “Lore: Forbidden (Traitor Legions)”
2. Replace “Lore: Common (Imperium)” with “Lore: Forbidden (Heresy)”
3. Add “Minor Mutation (x3)” for 300 XP.
- Rank 2:
1. Replace “Lore: Common (Imperial Guard)” with “Lore: Forbidden (Cults)”
2. Replace “Lore: Common (Imperial Navy)” with “Lore: Forbidden (Daemonology)”
3. Add “Minor Mutation” for 300 XP.
4. Add “Devoted to Tzeentch” talent for 1000 XP.
5. Add “Devoted to Nurgle” talent for 1000 XP.
6. Add “Devoted to Khorne” talent for 1000 XP.
7. Add “Devoted to Slaanesh” talent for 1000 XP.
- Rank 3:
1. Replace “Lore: Common (Adeptus Astartes) +10” with “Lore: Forbidden (Traitor Legions) +10”
2. Replace “Lore: Common (Imperial Guard) +10” with “Lore: Forbidden (Cults) +10”
3. Replace “Lore: Common (Imperial Navy) +10” with “Lore: Forbidden (Daemonology) +10”
4. Replace “Lore: Common (Imperium) +10” with “Lore: Forbidden (Heresy) +10”
5. Replace “Lore: Common (Ecclesiarchy)” with “Lore: Forbidden (Warp)”
6. Replace “Lore: Forbidden (Adeptus Astartes)” with “Lore: Forbidden (Inquisition)”
7. Add “Minor Mutation” for 300 XP.
- Rank 4:
1. Replace “Lore: Common (Ecclesiarchy) +10” with “Lore: Forbidden (Warp) +10”
2. Replace “Lore: Common (Imperial Guard) +20” with “Lore: Forbidden (Cults) +20”
3. Replace “Lore: Common (Imperial Navy) +20” with “Lore: Forbidden (Daemonology) +20”
4. Add “Minor Mutation” for 300 XP.
- Rank 5:
1. Replace “Lore: Common (Adeptus Astartes) +20” with “Lore: Forbidden (Traitor Legions) +20”
2. Replace “Lore: Common (Ecclesiarchy) +20” with “Lore: Forbidden (Warp) +20”
3. Replace “Lore: Common (Imperium) +20” with “Lore: Forbidden (Heresy) +20”
4. Replace “Peer (Adeptus Astartes)” with “Peer (Traitor Legions)”
5. Add “Minor Mutation” for 300 XP.
- Rank 6:
1. Replace “Good Reputation (Adeptus Astartes)” with “Good Reputation (Traitor Legions)”
2. Add “Minor Mutation” for 300 XP.
- Rank 7:
1. Replace “Lore: Forbidden (Adeptus Astartes) +10” with “Lore: Forbidden (Inquisition) +10”
2. Add “Minor Mutation” for 300 XP.
- Rank 8:
1. Replace “Lore: Forbidden (Adeptus Astartes) +20” with “Lore: Forbidden (Inquisition)+20”
2. Add “Minor Mutation” for 300 XP.

Deathwatch: Replace the Deathwatch tables with the following tables:
- Devotee of Tzeentch: Unlocked by purchasing the “Devoted to Tzeentch” talent, which confers the “Peer (Worshippers of Tzeentch)” and “Peer (The Insane)” talents, as well as the “Rival (Worshippers of Khorne)” and “Rival (Worshippers of Nurgle)” talents.
Name Cost Type Prerequisites
Unnatural Willpower (x2)
Daemonic
Psy Rating 1
Psy Rating 2 Psy Rating 1
Psy Rating 3 Psy Rating 2
Major Mutation (x3)
Psychic Power (x3) Psy Rating 1

- Devotee of Nurgle: Unlocked by purchasing the “Devoted to Nurgle” talent, which confers the “Peer (Worshippers of Nurgle)” talent, as well as the “Rival (Worshippers of Tzeentch)” talent.
Name Cost Type Prerequisites
Stuff of Nightmares
Unnatural Toughness (x2)
From Beyond
Sound Constitution (x5)
Natural Armor (3)
Toxic
Unnatural Strength (x2)

- Devotee of Khorne: Unlocked by purchasing the “Devoted to Khorne” talent, which confers the “Peer (Worshippers of Khorne)” and “Peer (The Insane)” talents, as well as the “Rival (Worshippers of Tzeentch)” and “Rival (Worshippers of Slaanesh)” talents.
Berserk Charge
Frenzy
Furious Assault
Resistance (Psychic Powers)
Swift Attack
Whirlwind of Death
Lightning Attack

- Devotee of Slaanesh: Unlocked by purchasing the “Devoted to Slaanesh” talent, which confers the “Peer (Worshippers of Slaanesh)” talent, as well as the “Rival (Worshippers of Khorne)” talent.
Name Cost Type Prerequisites
Heightened Senses (All)
Unnatural Agility (x2)
Unnatural Fellowship (x2)
Rapid Reaction
Rapid Reload
Swift Attack
Lightning Attack

Apothecary (Fleshsmith): Unchanged
Assault Marine (Berserker): Unchanged
Devastator (Havoc): Unchanged
Librarian (Sorcerer):
- Replace all instances of Lore (Adeptus Astartes) with Lore (Traitor Legions), and vice versa
- Remove the “Rite of Sanctioning” talent from the Rank 1 advance table.
- Add the “Corpus Conversion” talent to the Rank 1 advance table for 200 XP.
- Add the “Psychic Spite” talent to the Rank 2 advance table for 400 XP, with the “Corpus Conversion” talent as a prerequisite.
- At character creation, the player must specify whether he wants to be a Sorcerer or a genuine psyker. If he chooses psyker, then leave the psyker talents in the tables. If he chooses Sorcerer, make the following changes:
1. Rank 1:
1. Replace “Psychic Power (x2)” with “Major Arcana (x2)”
2. Add the “Minor Arcana” talent for 200 XP.
2. Rank 2:
1. Replace “Psy Rating 4” with the option to upgrade the Sorcerer’s effective Psy Rating by 1 permanently.
2. Replace “Psychic Power” with “Major Arcana”
3. Add the “Minor Arcana” talent for 200 XP
3. Rank 3:
1. Replace “Psy Rating 5” with the option to upgrade the Sorcerer’s effective Psy Rating by 1 permanently.
2. Add the “Minor Arcana” talent for 200 XP
4. Rank 4:
1. Replace “Psy Rating 6” with the option to upgrade the Sorcerer’s effective Psy Rating by 1 permanently.
2. Replace “Psychic Power” with “Major Arcana”
3. Add the “Minor Arcana” talent for 200 XP
5. Rank 5:
1. Replace “Psy Rating 7” with the option to upgrade the Sorcerer’s effective Psy Rating by 1 permanently.
2. Add the “Sublime Arts” talent for the cost of 800 XP.
3. Add the “Fuelled by Flesh” talent for the cost of 500 XP.
4. Add the “Minor Arcana” talent for 200 XP
6. Rank 6:
1. Replace “Psy Rating 8” with the option to upgrade the Sorcerer’s effective Psy Rating by 1 permanently.
2. Replace “Psychic Power” with “Major Arcana”
3. Add the “Minor Arcana” talent for 200 XP
7. Rank 7:
1. Replace “Psy Rating 9” with the option to upgrade the Sorcerer’s effective Psy Rating by 1 permanently.
2. Add the “Master Sorcerer” talent for the cost of 1000 XP.
3. Add the “Minor Arcana” talent for 200 XP
8. Rank 8:
1. Replace “Psy Rating 10” with the option to upgrade the Sorcerer’s effective Psy Rating by 1 permanently.
2. Replace “Psychic Power” with “Major Arcana”
3. Add the “Minor Arcana” talent for 200 XP
Tactical Marine (Chaos Marine): Unchanged
Techmarine (Warsmith):
- Reduce the level of all Lore (Adeptus Mechanicus) upgrades by one step – Trained becomes Basic, +10 becomes Trained, etc.

And that is what I have so far. I've been kind of idly tinkering with stats for the Legions, but haven't really come up with anything good. I want to get the 5 Undivided Legions and the Red Corsairs covered first though.

So is this the advancements for basic CSM, simular to Codex Advancements from DW? I like the idea, especially if want to flesh out an Elite.

That was my plan, yes, although I made it with CSM PCs in mind, I'm sure it could be useful in fleshing out an Elite. I'm still stuck on how to replicate space marine character creation for CSM, though, especially chapter/legion-specific things.

Faydra said:

Standard issue disclaimer you've probably heard before: be careful in chosing a legion/daemon sponsor, or make sure you ahve a very mature group or things can go from fun to uncomfortable in a big hurry.

That out of the way: What Legion specifics are you stuggling with? Like the patterns and special abilities?

Charmander said:

Well, patterns, special abilities, relics/trappings, and for a couple legions, potential past events. Demeanors are also proving troublesome, and although it's a ways off, Legion-specific psychic powers are probably going to be irritating as well.

Also, what should I be on the lookout for in regards to legion/daemon sponsors?

Faydra said:

Yeah, they didn't build deathwatch in a day either . I tend to try and stick with the baseline that's been created with a couple of exras. If doing things for PCs I'd probably focus on changing some of the flavor text but leaving a lot of the mechanics untouched. For NPCs, I'd probably change up the mechanics a little bit more but you can get away with more fuzzy math when dealing with NPCs as they're run by the GM.

Others on the board would do better at suggesting books, but the legions have some pretty interesting backgrounds that could be inspiration for past events, trappings, etc. For some of it, if you have a copy of the TT rules/codexes, I'd look to it for some inspiration as well. Chaos can be a very complicated enemy, with their own thoughs, motivations, hopes, dreams, etc., and it might be worth having your players pick up some of the inspirational material as well.

The trouble with demons (or <uber evil depraved bad guy here>), in my experience has come down to two main main issues. First one is concepts like ****, torture, abuse, etc. and all the other depraved things chaos does is a whole new level of evil compared to the Empire's comparatively mild exterminatus and general opression. Some people get wierded out by that when they're the ones doing it. The second is that trying to roleplay a true sociopath/psycopath/chaos devotee is difficult because for most of us it's a very alien concept. A lot of 'play the badguy' campaigns I've seen devolve into the sterotype with a layer of nervous laughter over the top. You go from an exercise in challenging role playing and boundary pushing to the equivalent of a poorly timed fart joke.

If you can get the right group of players together however, you can have a really rewarding experience.

Bad guys? Traitor Marines seem to have a lot in common with PCs for most game systems. Does "Grind, kill, loot" sound suspiciously familiar?

As for the problem of discipline, having Word Bearers means victory is a matter of faith, with the accompanying religious structures, while Alpha Legionaires take orders from higher ups in their cell, analogues to the Watch-Captains.

Now if everyone wants a World Eater...

Psychic powers should be more powerful, but more likely to invoke perils of the warp/ grant mutations unless you take an appropriate talent or Mark. Sorcerers can come from any career path, but those who start off as Psykers should get an advantage in power/reliability/more choice.

Starting Marines should have a higher Rank as they're generally veterans of centuries or even 10k, even the lowly squad marines. Maybe drawbacks such as starting mutations/insanity/corruption, or loss of fate and wounds?

Armour Marks should switch around the rolls on the table, with Mark 7 comparatively rare. Maybe add a roll for "Hybrid", as many Chaos Marines cobble together their armour to the point where no one's quite sure what it used to be.

Possession of weapons should be a wargear option for certain careers/starting Legions, with a general feel of lack of supplies but ancient and more powerful wargear. After all, that Heresy era combi-bolter's useless unless you can manufacture/loot ammunition for it.

Extensive usage of subordinate cultists/traitors. The PCs aren't part of a Chaos marine army, they're on missions. Have them commanding anything from an operative cell of stormtrooper-level spies and commandos to a cancer cult in the depths of a hive. If the latter, rules for meatshields?

Common Lore (Adeptus Astartes) should probably become an equivalent Common Lore (Traitor Legions) rather than Forbidden Lore (Traitor Legions). Common Lore is what you get from constant immersion in a culture, while the Forbidden Lore is the secrets of the group.

I was not too impressed with the Black shield class in RoB, and I think your work here will do well to flesh out my Black shield NPCs.

Thank you

Ugolino said:

It can be similar, but when you paint the 'super evil bad guys' with a brush of 'super evil' it's been my experience that people can and will take it to bizzare extremes. To me both taking the evil plauge bearing marines to the extreme or playing grind/kill/loot is missing an opportunity, but to each their own.

Ugolino said:

As discussed on other threads, the traitor legions still recruit, so you could start them off low level (scout style) or mid level (DW starting level) and probably be okay. That combined with the warp playing tricks on you means you may not have 10k years of actual physical combat experience. But that said, playing a group of original traitors could make for an interesting story, low or high level.

I like your point on the armory and your adventure seeds, could make for an interseting feel...

Interestingly, are there any published rules for Astartes chain axes somewhere that I missed? They are, after all, favoured quite heavily by the World Eaters and general Berzerkers, but I can't seem to find them anywhere. RoB didn't add them. Not that you can't just convert a chainsword to one by changing the stats to reflect the differences between a power sword and a power axe, but still. Printed rules are nice.

VonIndy said:

I don't believe that any are in print. If you follow that line of conversion (which should work out fine) then we could also take the Frostblade and make the Frostaxe.