LordoftheMilk said:

Not saying he wouldn't, but a farmer with Int 4, would likely be able to do simple math, and also read simple sentences.

I don't want to go into a discussion of "But but... a Int 5 person wouldn't naturally be able to read!!!", no just like a strength 6 person wouldn't naturally be good at fighting, and a WP 5 wouldn't naturally be resistant to seduction.

It's a rough guide line I suggested, not a whole rule set to deal with literacy...

I really think you guys are over-analysing this way too much.

My thought, and in my game, an NPC will be able to read if its needed. If not, I'll make a judgement call.

A PC will be able to read, whatever, unless the player doesn't want them to, for background/colour reasons. With a few exceptions of course - a mage will ALWAYS be able to read, unless they lack sight.

Spivo said:

A farmer could have an intelligence of 6 no problem. Intelligence is not education... that's skills. Intelligence is the raw powers of logic and such... like IQ in the broadest sense.

There is a bouncer in the US, who's well known because he has an IQ well over 200. He has no formal education and he's the farmboy with an intelligence of 6.

But that doesn't mean he can read or write. Even someone with severe dyslexia can have a very high IQ.

Being intelligent back then didn't mean you could read and being able to read didn't mean you were intelligent (although it may have been percieved as such back then in other terms). The two have very little in common in a setting where most people can't read.

Gallows said:

Aww... come on! That is nit-picking. I present a rough guideline, and people struggle to shot it down, with examples of people who would be super humanly intelligent and yet not be able to read.

The game is a generalist game. Agility presents both finger agility, reactions in combat, knowledge of where to shot, etc...

If you "just" use education as a guide line, you'll have "Illiterate" on one side, and "Able to read/write books, knowledge of law, math etc..." on the other side. Nothing in between.

Would it make more sense to have strength equal ability to read? No... intelligence is the ability that comes closest to indicate the ability to grasp some written words. Dumb people could get 40 years of education, and yet never learn to read, while some (intelligent) people pick up knowledge extremely swift.

You think: A) Dumb people learn to read/write faster, than B) Intelligent people?

Combine intelligence with social upbrining, and you'd have a very good indicator of wether or not the person would have some slight knowledge of words.

Remember, I'm not saying intelliegent 6 people with 4 starting wealth could come as close as someone with education, I'm saying it makes sense they're able to read simple stuff.

Spivo said:

You twist my logic around... intelligent people learn to to read faster than less intelligent people (unless they're dyslexic), but that doesn't mean that intelligence is a good measurement of litteracy.

I said your system was fine, but I just wanted to point out that drawing such a strong line between intelligence and litteracy was wrong. It has nothing to do with WFRP really as your system could be just fine as an abstract way of handling it.

In modern days there is a stronger connection between literacy levels and intelligence simply because everyone learns to read/write in school. But being intelligent has nothing to do with your social class and your social class in the middle ages has everything to do with your literacy level.

That said wealth doesn't equal social class as priests may be poor but rank high on the social ladder. But many careers such as agitators, performers, priests etc. should be able to read. Perhaps a career based system could work. If a career suggests a PC/NPC can read, then he can and his intelligence can determine how well.

I like to portrait a world where literacy is not so important as a survival skill as it is nowadays. I like to imagine a world where fewer people can read than those that can't, and I find it very amusing to describe things to work no a world like that. I think it is funny, and entertaining, to imagine and describe a world that is very different than ours. that's my annoyance with FFG's current way of making handouts. goblins writing? aff!

I'm fine with the way the careers are organized on third edition. in general, thought, I do prefer 2nd in the way that almost every career that I thought would deal with reading and writing as a necessity had that skill listed. on 3rd edition, as careers are organized with number of skills being a great issue, sometimes FFG chose to let Education out, and I'm not exactly comfortable with that a lot of times. like the Witch Hunter - if I'm not mistaken. but on a second thought, a Witch Hunter is not a basic career, and so a character that becomes one was something else before. if he was a Zealot, I can imagine him not being able to read - it would be the mad Witch Hunter type. if he was a Priest, or an Investigator, or something like that, he would - so I'm fine with that. I don't expect a Witch Hunter to have the utmost training in Education.

the question of necessity is the one I ask when thinking if some character would be able to read something or not - if the character in question doesn't have Education listed, that is. every character could learn Education, if buying it with great effort in an Out-of-Career Advancement. the question of necessity is what differentiates Warhammer world from ours. formally organized schools are way too few in Warhammer world, so there is no organization of learning subjects. the relation of math with literacy is not as direct as it is in our reality. most farmers would be able to do simple math, because their living depends on not being cheated so often by the town's Merchants who buy their goods. to read and write wouldn't be so great a need for them. at least, in my opinion.

that wouldn't mean he wouldn't be able to read some words. but that's already expressed here. I find it interesting to imagine some way to rule who could read and who couldn't, and how well. but to me that's not a necessity.

my players have a lot of fun with their characters not being able to read. alright, they have a wizard, so someone is able. and I have a lot of fun describing drawings around the town and making handouts that are based on that notion.

Pedro Lunaris said:

I would expect that even if not all Witch Hunters can read, as an Advanced career it should provide at least the opportunity for learning, considering the number of scriptures and heretical documents Witch Hunters are expected to understand in order to fulfill their duties as judges, juries and executioners. I suppose you could have a scribe following the Witch Hunter around reading things for him, but I think it would be in every Witch Hunter's interests to become literate eventually.

I think that the best house rule would really be to introduce a new advanced skill open to most careers (read/write). If you buy education then you get it for free.

or make it a basic skill closed as advancement to all careers. if you don't have it trained, you aren't able to read automatically; you would then need and Intelligence test. if you have it trained, you know how to Read and Write automatically in your own mother language.

the thing about being a basic skill closed to all careers is that if you want to learn how to read and write, you'll have to spend 2 out-of-career advancements. it's a little more expensive than the regular skill advancement, but doesn't have the overwhelming price of 4 out-of-career advancements.

and, yes, getting Education would give you the ability to Read and Write. the relation between the two skills could be similar to that between Medicine and First Aid.