How do you handle it?

Nobody can read in your Warhammer? I mean except the few with Education?

So, for example, the servants of the manor in Eye for an Eye can't read the note about the Goose?

Witch Hunters can't read scriptures, or write a Wanted panel? Same for Watchmen or Roadwardens?

It's a good question, I've always assumed that everyone has what I call Low Learning as a basic skill, that is that given enough time and with enough help anyone can read anything as long as it's in a language and tone they understand.

Picture the scene from Young Guns, while others are sticking and stammering on words and may only get the gist of the article, but not fully understand, Billy is obviously educated and gives a flawless reading that he also fully understands.

All the best

Mike

After education I look at a characters starting wealth. If they are affluent or comfortable they can read. Poor or broke they can't. Although dwarves can read dwarfen and elves can read elven. Just my thoughts.

Well seriously in early 18th century France the illiteracy rate was about 70%... so why in a world patterned after approximately 15th century Europe would the literacy numbers be higher than this? they would be lower actually around the time of the Gutenburg press the rate was probably around 10%.. So pretty much everyone is illiterate except for the Nobles, Clergy and the emerging yet still very small bourgeois with the money to spend... Hard to imagine to people living in the modern age of compulsory education but true none the less,

Most "writing" for common folk is done with pictures.

The "Red Moon Inn" doesn't have those letters on a sign over its door. It actually has a picture of a Red Moon, possibly with a small bed and bottle somewhere on it to signify an inn.

Similarly, your best bet for "Goose is Good", would be to, instead of the words, have a picture of a goose with a check mark or a thumb or a green circle, etc.

Common folk don't read words, but they understand pictures, which in essence becomes the "common man's writing". Otherwise, they pay for a scribe, town crier, or someone else who is literate, to read something for them.

pvhammer said:

I just snatched your idea, very nifty

Heretek said:

15th century Europe didn't have the Colleges of Magic. The Imperial Cults are not conducted in Latin. There is no entity trying to keep the populace illiterate.

Sure the peasants and poor can't read. Only a few villagers can read. But get to the towns and cities and literacy goes up. After all who is reading all those My Travels with Gotrek novels and agitator pamphlets?

pvhammer said:

Granted 15th century Europe did not have a College of Magic but Wizards are really, really rare... to the point that even most hedge magicians probably ar'e not fully literate and use graphic symbolism in the place of written incantation. The imperial cults are not conducted in Latin.. this argument does not hold much weight with me becuase if a "mass" is held in the speakers tongue this still does not translate to higher literacy through education. As for who's reading the Gotrek books, mostly nobles and again the growing bourgeois class (who live in the cities for the most part) but either way the great majority of people in the Empire are from the Brass tier and frankly I would have a hard time accepting a "Grim, Dark" Empire where every peasant is sitting home reading about the exploits of Gotrek or the Altdorf Press while sipping their morning coffee before heading on the way out to work in the fields or the docks. So for my game at least peasant class types can't read and the few that have some literacy are still in our terms functionally illiterate so they might understand important words such as Attention or Wanted on a sign they are not capable of heavy reading. Even many people in the Silver Tier are functionally illiterate and rely on scribes and such for their worded transactions but their is a most certain upswing in educated and hence literate artisans and merchants, Clergy and Magi are most certainly literate but not all clergy need be since many lower rung clergy in Medieval Europe could not read nor really had a reason too. Nobles on the other hand had a very high rate of literacy as did servants who's job functions required it... Even in the face of high illiteracy books are still written... and historically where written even as early as the 6th Century A.D. I'm not suggesting that "no one can read" simply that it's a pretty low number and even with the advent of the press in Altdorf many people pay a reader to read the news to them and I'm pretty sure this is mentioned somewhere in a 2nd edition supplement.. Anyway I personally prefer a dark, grim world full of dirty, illiterate peasants and rich corrupt clergy and nobles but to each their own I guess...

pvhammer said:

pvhammer said:

Granted 15th century Europe did not have a College of Magic but Wizards are really, really rare... to the point that even most hedge magicians probably ar'e not fully literate and use graphic symbolism in the place of written incantation. The imperial cults are not conducted in Latin.. this argument does not hold much weight with me becuase if a "mass" is held in the speakers tongue this still does not translate to higher literacy through education. As for who's reading the Gotrek books, mostly nobles and again the growing bourgeois class (who live in the cities for the most part) but either way the great majority of people in the Empire are from the Brass tier and frankly I would have a hard time accepting a "Grim, Dark" Empire where every peasant is sitting home reading about the exploits of Gotrek or the Altdorf Press while sipping their morning coffee before heading on the way out to work in the fields or the docks. So for my game at least peasant class types can't read and the few that have some literacy are still in our terms functionally illiterate so they might understand important words such as Attention or Wanted on a sign they are not capable of heavy reading. Even many people in the Silver Tier are functionally illiterate and rely on scribes and such for their worded transactions but their is a most certain upswing in educated and hence literate artisans and merchants, Clergy and Magi are most certainly literate but not all clergy need be since many lower rung clergy in Medieval Europe could not read nor really had a reason too. Nobles on the other hand had a very high rate of literacy as did servants who's job functions required it... Even in the face of high illiteracy books are still written... and historically where written even as early as the 6th Century A.D. I'm not suggesting that "no one can read" simply that it's a pretty low number and even with the advent of the press in Altdorf many people pay a reader to read the news to them and I'm pretty sure this is mentioned somewhere in a 2nd edition supplement.. Anyway I personally prefer a dark, grim world full of dirty, illiterate peasants and rich corrupt clergy and nobles but to each their own I guess...

Ouch... please make paragraphs when typing a large mass of text

I think the point was, that you can't compare Warhammer world, to Europe 15th century. For one, it has wizards...

And a very valid point is, that in 15th century Europe, the educated did what they could to actually keep the general public illiterate. For one, having the most important literate works written in a non-spoken language, does contribute greatly to this.

Imagine in UK, if everyone spoke english, but all the important books were written in french... would this make people more, or less literate. I believe the later.

So... in a world where the books are actually written in the spoken language (apart from maybe Chaotic/wizardly works), the public would be very likely to have a higher degree of literacy.

It is in fact discussed which contributed mainly to literacy in Europe, the press or the translation of the bible into common spoken language.

The fact is, however, the game rules and Warhammer world background itself support the fact that the majority of humans are currently illiterate. Currently, literacy in the Empire is mainly in the hands of the nobility, wizards, and some specialty careers. The common folk have much more important things to do than spend the time trying to learn the read.

Institutions, such as schools, are few and are restricted to nobility or specialized careers. Most common people are taught/learn by doing and watching, not by reading a book. They have criers to read out public announcements for them, as well as word of mouth, plus minstrels and carnivals and entertainers take up the place of a 'book', in the few scant hours each week that the commoner has time free from working or sleeping.

I don't believe I said that every peasant can read. In the ToB section on Heresy and Literacy it mentions cosmopolitan cities like Altdorf and Nuln.

I think questioning secular and religious authority, revolutionary and heretical thought adds to the feeling of 'grimdark'.

I don't feel that we need such rigid, hard and fast rules for this sort of thing. My feeling is, (as the GM) look at the NPC, if it feels right they they are literate, have them be. As for PCs, wealth is a good measure of literacy. On top of that, ask the players what they feel - if they come up with a decent reason they should be literate when their wealth would suggest otherwise, let them be literate.

Of course, the idea of degrees of literacy is definitely a good one. A noble that has experienced the finest schools throughout his upbringing will be a much better reader than a local bounty hunter, who has managed to work out the words on a wanted poster over the years...

I do like to imagine Warhammer world with very few literate people. Even if there is a press, books aren't so mass produced as they are today, so the rate of 30 or even 20% of the population is appealing to me.

I do have a lot of fun describing things in a way that works in a world like that. The "goose is good" note I just drew a badly sketched goose, a fork and a knife. The Pcs got the meaning, but they also wondered if the goose was good or if the note meant the opposite. It was great! Yes, they ate the goose.

I also think that the majority of poeple would understand a couple of words and would be able to get the general meaning of a public notice. It would take a lot of time for them to do so, and they would probably discuss different understandings. After a couple of arguments, people would just reach a common sense (that could be totatlly wrong!) and no one would try to read the notice again, just getting the information from mouth. So if a noble or administrator wants some notice to be understood, they would get a literate man to read to everyone who passes the notice for a day or two. That's the kind of stuff which makes Warhammer world come alive for me.

Also, people would know how to calculate. We got a moderately long argument in my group because noe of the palyers couldn't understand how someone who doesn't read could do maths. Well, I know they are really different things, and in a world where trade is a constant do sums is a survival skill, and really, really basic. It is not unheard of kids who don't go to school in my country but manage selling candies at buses,for instance. They can't read, but some of them do maths really well and really fast. There was a newspaper piece on an old man that worked at a fare and couldn't read, but was very fast in his calculations. It is just that we are not used to a world where this things would be learnt on the street, by need and day to day interaction, and not on a school.

I do get REALLY upset with some of WHFR matterials that FFG is releasing. I'm talking about the handouts. I find RIDICULOUS that a handout of a map that wre in the possession of the goblins would have ENGLISH WRITTINGS in it. Even if a character could understand goblin tongue, I don't expect goblins to have a written language more than just a couple of symbols.

I know that kind of stuff is made in the idea of generating fluff, and also to organize different aesthetics for the GM (the handouts of different chapters of TGS have the esthetics that relate to that chapter). But to me it doesn't work. I want handouts that are useful, that could translate what characters would find, and not this necessity of generating fluffy matterials. I know it is a way of statnig how goblinoids are fun, even if creepy, but I sure prefer to describe that in a way that would be consistent with the world the adveture is based on.

About the Witch Hunters, well, I do find them not to be in the way I like to imagine the Witch Hunters. I do think the world could have a couple of Witch Hunters who can't read, but not the majority of them. I know that someone who gets to be a Witch Hunter maybe could afford to buy Education as an out of career advancement... I too know that maybe a lot of Witch Hunters would come from Initiates of Sigmar, or something like that, that got an Insanity (I can't imagine Zealot from being really the case of the majority of Witch Hunters starting careers). So they would have Education, just not trained, probably. That's fine.

What I don't agree (this is somehow out of topic here) is Witch Hunters needing to have an Insanity. I do like to think that the majority of the Witch Hunters are so full of themselves that they do have some Insanity, and the rest are just plain paranoid, with a lot being both. But we do have couple of Mathias Thulmans around, and even if they are the minority of the Templars of Sigmar, I wouldn't like them having to pass through parallel ways to retain their minds and stability. That is, I do consider the Careers as stating which is basic of a Career, and I don't think being Insane is a basic thing to become a Witch Hunter. Not on mechanical aspects, at least.

Alright, back to the issue. I do like to treat Education without much precision. My group has a Grey Order Apprendice Wizard character. He doesn't have Education trained yet, but I allow him to read Classical Reikspiel things, albeit with some time and moderate effort. What I'm saying is that I won't ever come up with a rule of "so many trainings in Education means so many languages that your character knows". I'll just allow him to understand what I think he could, with more or less effort and translating time, and that would become easier and easier when he starts getting trained.

In a world where there aren't so many books as today, not to say information as a whole, you couldn't get some knowledge without going through a lot of different languages. If even today we need to know a couple of them to safely run through a post graduation, for exemple, because there are some books which simply aren't translated, imagine those times?!

I think the key to all of this is simple - is it important to the story, if so someone (NPC) involved can read!

Warhammer is not the Middle Ages where the church kept the public from knowlege for authority. It's a golden age of the Empire, the mightiest nation of the Old World!

FFG materials indicate that it is not so bad with reading. Burned farm in The Gathering Storm had a sign on which was written "Eigel". Books (and newspapers in major cities) are not prohibited and can be easly purchased because there is press (this is huge step from Dark Ages!). In TGS Shulman taught children to read, and it wasn't something unusual (priests propably do similar, Verena priests for sure). In Horror of Hugeldal agitator handed out to people pamphlet about Strigany (why, if no one can read?). You can easly find more of these.

I my Warhammer, if character have education, he can read and write fluently. I he have education trained, he may attempt to read other dialects and languages. Without education skill, everyone can try to read, but I require a test of intelligence to understand a few words or short note. As for writing most townspeople are able to scrawl his name.

While 3rd ed. rules state that education is needed to be able to read and write I believe the rules are wrong. There are so many examples of common folk in the official campaigns handing out written material (the guide in TTT, a poor and common man). The world setting, scenarios and campaigns simply do not support the notion that most commoners are illiterate.

Education means players can read and write very well and possibly more languages.

No education means you can read unless your intelligence is below 2. You can't write very well, but you can read a text and get the basic meaning. More complex texts need education.

The world, the campaigns and scenarios would break down if this illiteracy was as widespread as some of you believe. Everything in the 1st/2nd and 3rd edition scenario/campaign material suggests most people have basic reading skills.

Gallows said:

I think scenario authors are usually more concerned with creating good adventures than accurately portraying the setting's literacy rates. And players do love handouts. Perhaps making more graphical handouts would be the solution, but those are trickier to design and also increase the artwork budget. For a true reflection of literacy rates in v1/v2, I'd look at the number of instances of Read/Write skill in the Career profiles.

Herr Arnulfe said:

I know the rules say one thing... but the scenarios and campaigns that is essentially the meat of the setting and the very core of what the game is... shows another image. I have just decided that people in the old world aren't as illiterate as was the case in real world Europe at the time. Unless I want to change a lot of the handouts it just makes the most sense. It's not something that is going to change the setting a lot. The uninformed masses will still be uninformed and a majority of people will not be able to read very well if at all. But everyone everywhere knows someone who can read... that's my general view of the matter.

That said, it it always the wizard in our group who reads handouts for the others, since he's the one with education. I just find it most practical for the flow of the game not to worry too much about it.

Gallows said:

Assuming widespread literacy certainly makes GMing easier in some ways. When designing scenarios, I try to make an effort to limit text-based handouts to NPCs who are actually literate themselves. This covers a fairly large percentage of NPCs, since nobles, burghers, merchants, priests etc. are all literate, and those careers make up a significant proportion of NPCs in investigative-style adventures.

Adventuring parties in v1/v2 also tend to contain a higher proportion of literate characters because the career tables aren't distributed according to actual population demographics. In a party of 5, it's fairly common to have at least 2-3 literate PCs in v1/v2.

Herr Arnulfe said:

Yeah that makes sense. I'd personally also refrain from giving the players a well written journal belonging to the simple farmboy as a handout. But having a good reason for NPCs to be literate, so you can fit in the handouts, is a good way of handling it.

I've thought about doing the following, I'll struggle to keep it simple, but bear with me...

Following formula: INTx2 + Starting Wealth = Literacy level... So Int 3 and wealth 2 equals 8.

5 - 6 = Completely illiterate, signs with an "X", and is not able to read anything.

7 - 8 = Able to read a few words, like city signs ("Altdorf"), but would not understand the number following it ("50 miles"). Able to read "Inn", "Docks" etc... Still signs with "X".

9 - 10 = Able to read simple sentences, and simple pamphlets. Can do simple math (4 shilling + 3 shilling = 7 shilling). Able to sign with something resembling your name.

11 + = Can read books, slowly, but steady. Can write simple sentences, but letters show lack of proper teaching.

Of course, education is a different level, since this means having an actual education (...).

This means that Int 2 chars would at most be able to read simple words, Int at most simple sentences, and Int 4, despite being of low standing, would still be able to read simple sentences.

That could work spivo, but intelligence doesn't really have anything to do with literacy level in these times. You could have a very bright and resourceful farmer, who can't read anything. I am thinking (starting wealth)x2 + inteligence is a better way to look at it.

Gallows said:

Wealth can be two things. Social background, or just good fortune (robbing someone etc...).

Intelligence is your ability to understand things, and if you've seen a word a few times, then a smart person will quickly pick up what it means.

Also. Int 3 costs 3 CP's, wealth 4 costs the same. So I'd rather let Int weight more in the calculation.

Can't really see a farmer having Int 4 anyway, he might have Int 3, and then Charm/Guile to haggle, but not Int 4.

Keep in mind, that to actually read complex stuff, you need to get fairly high (Int 4 and good background). My calculation merely helps to enable PC's (Npc's) to read primitive stuff, to get by.

I will also give the players an additional language for each spec they get in education. Thus the first point they spend, they learn Reikland/Empire really. The second though, they can begin to learn Brettonian and such. This also indicates the culture they've learned. Stuff like Elvish, and maybe even Dwarven, might be a seperate skill, and one you'd have to have Education 3, to begin learning.

Why wouldn't farmer have int 4?