Okay, looking at the section of the Chapter creation ruleson page 17, it says that if the chapter is "Pure" or "A New Generation" it follows ALL of the rules of its parent Chapter. Exactly how far does that go? I get the Character adjustments? Chapter Advancements? Do I get to have a Frost Blade? Those paragraphs are oddly unclear.

Prospero_Cade said:

It seems to be more of a guideline to represent how close your chapter is to the orignal founding. If it was 100% pure and everything the same I really see no point then in putting the time to create a new one. The next level from pure says they retain everything but demeanor, which is still pretty close to the original. I would probably pick one that I though best represented what I wanted this new chapter to be.

Nimon, that really does not help me. I was asking just how far into the parent chapter rules I am allowed to go. My thoughts are that I 'count as' the parent chapter in all aspects aside from characteristic adjustments and demeanour. Meaning I could get a chapter trapping and MUCH later get the chapter relic.

Prospero_Cade said:

Sorry to be of no help I will ignore your future posts.

Prospero_Cade said:

My personal feeling is that Successors should not be allowed Chapter relics, nor to use Chapter-specific Deeds. Otherwise many Successor Chapters are 'better' than their founders if you allow them to use everyting, as most receive an additional bonus above and beyond their Parent Chapter. Plus, access to 'pain glove mastery' as a Crimson Fist is just dumb, as would being allowed to use another Chapter's sacred relics.

I'd probably look at at least changing Chapter Trappings too, just to add another layer of differentiation. Even if it's just changing the name and description of the items, or using items from other Chapters with changed names/descriptions. (ie instead of a Cingulum belt of +3WS to parry (Ultra marines), give the Consecrator a charm carved from a tree in the woods of Caliban that gave +3WS to parry)

So you would 'Count as' a Chapter for squad mode abilities if you were not a Unique Chapter?

If you're a NovaMarine and an Ultramarine calls the Chapter attack pattern, you mean?

I'd say 'yes' in this case, as you are schooled in the style of warfare of the parent chapter (ie you have the same chapter attack pattern). In fact very much so in this case, as they are both Codex Chapters.

Siranui said:

There's even a way for others to learn the Chapter pattern/stance, so these are obviously a learned thing and not something intrinsic to the gene-seed of a particular Chapter.

I'm also all for Successors taking (most) Chapter-specific Deeds. As an example, Ritual Duel Fighter is based upon the duels with the Space Wolves that all Unforgiven are noted as participating in. I think that Distinctions might be a bit more specific, since Tyrannic War Veteran is going to be hard to justify for Successors that are far from Ultramar.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Black Templars DO NOT count as an Imperial Fist Successor for the purposes of Deeds and Relics, whereas the Crimson Fists do. It's all a matter of getting the full write-up, and I really feel that the current Successor Chapter rules are a weak placeholder for more fleshed-out work.

RIght, so according to the example used in the article posted today, when it says "Use all rules," it means all the rules. So, a pure Chapter uses the parent's Demeanor, Characteristic Bonuses, Psychic Powers, Squad Abilities, etc.

Of course, this raises a new question: when do you use the Characteristics Table? It's never actually mentioned in any of the text...

ddunkelmeister said:

And that's what I'm wondering about. It seems a tad over-powered if I can use all of the rules as a successor.

Prospero_Cade said:

It's a bit more powerful, yes. But generally each successor only gives a single bonus. Flesh Tearers get a bit more (but get a -15 Fel!), Consecrators get one nice piece of gear, Novamarines get a +10 to one Lore, etc.

All well and good, but hardly game breaking.

Prospero_Cade said:

I personally would go as far as calling the Common Lore: Imperial Guard or +10 on forbidden lore: xenos to be OP!

Restricting the use of Chapter relics seems very obvious to me. After all, you are then creating the character as per the normal chapter. There's nothing to say that you continue using those rules when relics start getting handed out.

Use all the rules means use all the rules, how is that hard to understand? Consecrators use all of the Dark Angels rules, plus the added relic rule under in their sidebar. IE: Make a Dark Angel, mastercraft 1 piece of their signature gear (which if they lose or it gets busted gets them HOSED), don't get any armor above mk6, and start roleplaying. This goes for chapter attack/defense patterns, and chapter relics (aside from the fact that whether or not you can get a chapter relic is entirely based on whether or not the GM wants to let you have it anyway, even if you're of the exact chapter). I seriously doubt you'll see a Black Templar throw a hissy fit if an Imperial Fist wears their relic armor just because he's not a Templar (assuming the IF isn't a librarian, but that's a whole different thing), as a Son of Dorn, is a Son of Dorn.