I got to eyeballing the pre-gen characters I did for Liber Fanatica #7 and calculate that this is the order of toughness of character:

Swordmaster > Ironbreaker >> Trollslayer >>> all other non-spellcaster classes

Swordmaster can wear any armor and gets a massively powerful weapon. That beats the ironbreaker.

The Trollslayer being next on the list with Wardancer having the weaker career ability.

Is this assessment correct?

I've actually got a newbie who just created a High Elf Swordmaster for my upcoming home campaign. To counter balance the effects of the sword, I've worked in a flavorful character driven quest (that fits with his story quite smashingly) in which he has to retrieve his sword from some Dark Elfs who overwhelmed him and left him for dead, taking his Sword as a prize. This way the other characters will have a chance to get advancements to make them better by the time he manages to get his sword back. That way it wont seem overtly unfair for the other players, even though he will be more powerful as well, the advancements for the others will help disguise this fact.

I also have a Wardancer and an Ironbreaker, however I can't really see how to do the same to the Ironbreaker without being overly redundant. I feel that all of those careers should have been advanced careers, for most of them a Martial Class should have had to have been completed before you could reach the level of those Careers. That is a house rule I will be running from now on, as well as not allowing a player to take one of the Career specific Actions (way of the sword, ritual dance, ancestor, etc..) unless they are a member of that Career.

This is a question I've been wondering as well, especially regarding the relative power levels of the Sword Master and Iron Breaker. I think each is superior to the other depending on the type of battle/combatants involved. I'm brand new to WFRP so my assessment of each career could be wrong. Here's my experience:

I just joined my first WFRP group (with dvang as the GM) and we played our initial session last Saturday. Our party includes both a Sword Master (me) and an Iron Breaker. In our first encounter, we squared off against some beastmen of various types. I scored the biggest hit of the night with 14 wounds (from a decent - but not great - roll using Path of the Hawk). However, I also walked away with 3 wounds (1 of which was a critical) even though I have Improved Parry, Ulthuan Scale armor, and the Roll With It talent.

The Iron Breaker in our group is only using a hand weapon (hammer), but is carrying a tower shield and has 5 Toughness. Successful attacks against him were doing only 1 wound. And while he wasn't able to put out the kind of damage I did (generally around 9 points), he was able to withstand far more punishment. In the long run, he might be able to out-damage me against hordes of weaker creatures.

My assessment:

In shorter battles or fights against a single, tough foe, I believe the Sword Master will be more effective. He can deliver high damage hits and crits to take out "the big bad". Having access to defense cards like Improved Parry or Speed of Asuryan will also make him harder to hit - for a turn. On the other hand, the Iron Breaker might only score 1 wound against a high soak target, and tougher foes often have access to anti-armor attacks, making the dwarf's armor and shield less important (or useless).

In longer battles or in fights with multiple weaker, adversaries, the Iron Breaker's combined armor, toughness and wounds will really shine. Round after round, he can simply grind his opponents down. The Iron Breaker won't be doing big hits, but most of his attacks should be successful, and any opponent will have a hard time getting through his soak with more than 1 wound.

We're playing again in 2 weeks. I'll report any combat results and see if my assessment holds up.

I would say you are correct Jay.

I think those careers are difficult to justify in gamein a typical WFRP empire campaign setting.

When they are justifiable, it is near impossible to justify learning the career actions in the empire setting, so they must have been learnt previously.

Having such a character in party should be rare, and a highlight of the campaign. The campaign should nearly be tailord around such a character, a bit like having a college mage in the party.

Having a wardancer, a swordmaster and an ironbreaker in the same party seems to me so improbable that I cannot imagine it. It also would give the campaign such a high fantasy colouring to it, it woulnm't correspond to my taste of WFRP.

Mechanically, I would suggest putting a major drawback in char creation to such characters, so that the player opting for those careers truly wants to RP, and not only abuse the system.

For example, I dont think I would allow a swordmaster have more than 3 Strength at creation, same for an ironbreaker. Wardancers look pretty weak to me in comparison.

As for Trollslayers, last time I have allowed a char to start out as one was 12 years ago I would probably want a character to start as an academic or menial character, lose his honor, and then take the oath.

I've houseruled that they both start out with poor ability to use them (equivalent of poor quality item..but considered 'practice with it' instead). For the ironbreaker, that means no dodge or improved dodge (in my house rules for poor armour effect). The swordmeester loses his bonus white die. At 4th advance they gain the full game-bustin' upgrade. The more I look at them, I'm leaning towards making them advanced simply because their items are so horribly, horribly broken compared to all other career abilities.

Justification for gaining abilities in empire is that they already know those abilities, but have not practiced them enough (problem solved after advances).

jh

It depends. The iron breaker just used his gromril armor to escape certain death by ignoring a critical wound. That's pretty hard to beat in terms of being powerful.

The troll slayer however gets the short stick. His lack of armor isn't compensated for by extra toughness, survivability or damage output. He does have some extra defence, but not comparable to the armors of sword master or iron breaker. His damage output isn't better, and the unique cards aren't adding much power.

For that reason I give troll slayers a new ability. Whenever they get to reckless 3+ they may enter the "Frenzied" condition freely. When in this state they always increase their reckless stance at least 1 each round (up to their maximum) and cannot freely change their stance towards conservative. They cannot end the frenzied state if they are engaged with an enemy or has been attacked on the current or last round.

Coming from a group that has both a Sword Master and Iron Breaker, I just don't see them as being game-breaking. Taking a closer look at the Sword Master, here's what I see:

Yes, the Greatsword of Hoeth is tough. But honestly, it's not much better than a standard great weapon which only costs 1 gold. The +1 fortune die isn't all that impressive (50% chance of doing nothing) and it has a higher encumbrance. Honestly, I might take the higher DR of a regular greatsword instead. Plus, some of the better action cards for 2-handed weapons are best used in a reckless stance, which is not the SM's strong suit.

Furthermore, the SM's career traits are Toughness and Agility - not Strength. You've got to spend a lot of character creation points to get that Strength stat up to 4 or 5, and that doesn't leave much room for anything else.

Finally, this is the world of Warhammer - it's not all about the hack n' slash. Social interaction should be often, important and deadly. My SM only has Fel 2, and as a High Elf people are deeply suspicious of me. Both my GM and I play this up quite nicely. Remember, there are some things you can't fight your way out of.

Now, in combat situations the SM is going to shine. But why shouldn't he? Just like the other players in our group will do well in their respective areas, I should do well in mine. We have a High Elf Gambler, a Mystic and a Bounty Hunter. They all contributed nicely to our first combat scene in their own ways (with the High Elf Gambler getting 12 wounds off a normal longbow shot). Now the Iron Breaker and I are counting on them to get us through the social encounters.

A few random thoughts:

How is having an Iron Breaker and a Sword Master in the same group even plausible? Doesn't that ruin the low-fantasy feel of WFRP? I can see how it might not be to everyone's taste, but I don't see it as destroying the feel off WFRP. Not at all.

I'll use our party as an example. The High Elf Gambler is a low-ranking yet adventure-seeking noble that is touring the Old World to play cards, roll dice and basically "slum it" in the Empire. My Sword Master (for various reasons I won't go into here) has been assigned as her bodyguard.

During character creation I took skill specializations (in Discipline) and action cards (Improved Parry and My Life for Yours) that fit with this theme. I also have to do my best to keep the Gambler alive in combat situations (and she has To 2, 10 wounds and leather armor). I think these elements make for some great roleplaying opportunities that are classic Warhammer.

The Iron Breaker is a partner (or employee, they're still working out the contract negotations) of the human Bounty Hunter. They've been hired by my Sword Master to do a job on the side. Finally, our human Mystic is "advising" the Gambler on when, where and how it's best to gamble.

In the end, I think it's all about how you and your GM approach the details, and put characters in situations where they need to think of solutions - instead of just roll dice - to survive.

Sincerely,

Yipe

P.S. I do like Emirikol's explanation of how a Sword Master or Iron Breaker would pick up additional "career specific" skills while in the Empire. That is the justification that I've been planning to use (e.g. unlocking Final Stroke of the Master sometime down the road).

Well, I'll start off with:

It really depends on their stats and their equipment, as well as their actions and their rank.

The differences between a SM and IB:

Elf gets +Ag and +Int
Dwarf gets +St and +To

A Dwarf has to spend fewer points to raise the "primary" stats for a fighter. Advantage Dwarf.

(I'm trying to do this by memory, so I could be wrong about the following...)
SM gets +Ag and +To
IB gets +To and +WP

Now, the last "difference" is the Greatsword of Hoeth vs Gromril Armour.

A GSoH vs 2-handed weapon -
1 less DR, but gives the ability to choose between 2 criticals if you score a critical hit. Also adds [W]

Gromril Armour vs Full Plate Armour
1 additional soak & Defense and less encumberance.

Now, put a SM in full plate and match him against an IB wielding a 2-handed weapon.

The SM gets the [W] from the GSoH, but the IB has slightly better armour, slightly more damage (on average), and probably slightly better stats.

(Keep in mind that both careers can take the exact same Actions, so actions make no difference when comparing careers)

Personally, I think that IB > SM (especially when you consider the high elf cone-head helmet! )

This is especially true for starting PCs, as it is extremely rare for a SM to be able to afford any sort of heavy armour, certainly nothing that comes close to what the Gromril provides ... whereas its easily affordable for an IB to buy a Greatweapon at creation.

anyway, keep in mind that some of the above is from memory (wish I had my book with me at work), and I admit could be slightly wrong, but the majority of it is correct.
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In regards to the SM/IB party comments. I will let you know that the majority of the players involved are not familiar with the Warhammer world, and only slightly more familiar with roleplaying in general. I felt no compunction to restrict them from choosing a career that they were interested in. There *is* quite a bit of tension between the IB and the SM. Each has their own backstory for why they are where they are, and why/how they got involved in this particular group. For a bunch of novices, they've done very well dealing with and explaining such a situation. And, just so you know, I totally believe that "high fantasy" is in the hands of the GM and the players ... and is not determined by the composition of the party (unless maybe you are talking fantastical non-standard races or playing deities). A group could have an entire party of wood elves, that is still a gritty and dangerous "low fantasy" world, for example. Just saying.

Honestly, though, as a GM, I have no fear that Yipe's SM is at all a problem or broken. The IB is a bit more of a challenge, since he went the "bunker" route, piling a 5 To + Tower Shield + Improved Block to give him something like a 12 soak. I have plans for him, though ... <evil grin> and I am not really concerned. As Yipe said, though, his damage output is fairly average. The rest of the group are relatively fragile, however, consisting of a Bounty Hunter (focused on bow and investigation-type skills), a Gambler, and a Mystic. So, out of 5 PCs, these two *have* to carry the load in combat. And, they dislike each other and won't help each other out either (at least they haven't so far).

So, while the SM and IB are strong starting combat careers, I don't see them as particularly broken or overpowered, just somewhat challenging for the GM.

Edit: Oh, and Yipe's example was just against some ungor henchmen groups and a couple of Gors. Nothing very big, as it was essentially the very first combat..

dvang said:

That's all? Eek. I'm glad a lot of them ran away!

From our first encounter, I ended up with 3 wounds over 2 attacks (1 of them is a Severity 2 critical), while the Iron Breaker took 1 wound (he wasn't attacked until the end).

However, it was the Bounty Hunter who took the brunt of our damage. He was zinged for 5 damage in a single hit. One of the Iron Breaker's jobs is to protect the Bounty Hunter in combat, but now his companion is at nearly half his wound threshold from only 1 battle. Ouch. This nicely illustrates how a crafty GM can affect these "broken" careers in other ways. Besides, If all the supporting characters go down, a mob of opponents can just drag a lone character away into the forest and do with him as they please. Especially someone who's only 4 feet tall...

Also, as dvang hinted earlier the SM and IB didn't work well together and didn't coordinate any of their attacks (I tried, but the dwarf left me high n' dry facing a group of baddies). I realize this comes down to RP, but it fits with the Warhammer world and is another way these careers can be inserted into a party without unbalancing things.

And to bring my post back on topic: After our first combat encounter, I'd say that our party's Iron Breaker is tougher than my Sword Master. I don't know if I can generalize to all IBs vs SMs based solely on this experience, but the IB's build is so focused on soak that he's a beast in battle.