We had a rather interesting discussion on hordes and flame weapons today. So how exactly does a flamer work against horde. Going by RAW you inflict automatic hits. What happens then, does the horde have to roll agility for each hit, to see whether damage is inflicted, does the horde roll agility once to see wether the flamer is able to damage it at all (rather contradictory with auto hits) or does the horde simply recieve normal damage for each hit as per flamer statline (seems to be the way errata indicates it, as the horde normally does not dodge or parry, so it probably also does not use agility to avoid flamer attacks), which for each individual hit might lead to magnitude loss.

Second point was unrelenting devastation, cleanse and purify and flamer interaction. Say a dev with UD and cleans and purify fires his heavy flamer upon a horde, the number of hits he gets is 8+1d5 (heavy flamer) +1d5 (cleanse and purify) are all those hits doubled by UD ? If the erratas point in UDs case was to reduce its effectiveness for blast, would the same apply for flame (potential for 20-36 hits in the example i mentioned)? Is there a rule somewhere in the book regarding multipliers and additional dice like multiply first add bonus dice later, or roll and add bonus dice then multiply , i have a vague feeling, things like that are handled in a different way for each individual situation.

My assumption has always been that the Horde would not get to dodge and would take the damage automatically. I surmise that the random die roll takes care of this. If you roll low then many dodged, if you roll high then most failed to dodge.

When Dev is using a flamer I have always used the +1d5 as if it were an AOE blast weapon. So a Dev with a Heavy Flamer, Unrelenting Devastation and Cleanse & Purify would do 8+1d5+1d5+1d5.

Assuming the UD tweak was intended for automatic heavy weapons with blast quality only, one might still hav fun with launchers and flamers, we will have to wait for the next errata version though, based on the schedule of the first one i would say late june

You could subtract the horde size to-hit modifier from the AG value for this test but that would be a near automatic hit with most hordes. Hordes of Genestealers could manage though.

Alex

Some time ago I asked a rules question about flamers and hordes to FFG.
The official answer was a bit unclear but I interpreted it as: Hordes get to roll Ag normally, they just may not dodge in addition to that.
I posted it somewhere in this forum back then.

The ag roll isn't the dodge, normal ppl may roll ag and if they fail they may dodge if they can reach safety like with blast weapons.

My Techmarine started with a heavy flamer as signature wargear and until now it was quite useless.

Perhaps if wouldn't be so useless if one applied to hit modifiers as penalty to the ag test, similar to what AK-73 suggested while I was writing my post.
For example the horde magnitude to hit modifier or an aim modifier etc. But that would be a house rule.

The problem with flamers is that you need to be really close to your enemy but mustn't be in melee (except Handflamers) to use them.
In addition you always risk hitting nearby friends (like assault marines charging into melee).

In the end, in most cases, just throwing a grenade or shooting your bolter on full auto does more damage. And all other heavy weapons are much more versatile than the heavy astartes flamer. The Ag values of many enemies are just too high.

Here are the questions I asked to FFG with the answers from the old horde and flamer thread:

> Rule Question:
> When a Space marine with a Flamer attacks a horde, does the horde
> get to roll Ag to avoid being hit?
> If so do they roll once and if successfull evade all hits or do they
> roll once per hit taken?

Normally, Hordes may not dodge or parry. The GM (at his discretion)
may of course say that in his game, a horde can dodge or parry based
on the circumstances.

> And can someone hit by a flamer dodge in addition to the Ag roll to
> avoid being hit?

Yes, you may also try to dodge a flamer (although this is very
difficult). (See page 238-239 in the Deathwatch Core Rulebook for
details)

Ross Watson
Senior RPG Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected]

As I said not very clear about the ag roll.

For the sake of game-speed, I'd just roll damage, and if that damage is enough to actually damage a horde-member, then just go straight to rolling the 8+1d5 (+1d5 for cleanse and burn, +1d5 for devestator special ability). horde damage.

Flamers are great! They are limited in use somewhat, but for their intended role (which -lets face it- is killing loads of people in close quarters. ie hordes) they should be about the best tool in the armoury.

> I have a question regarding the newly errata'ed unrelenting
> devastation, cleans and purify and flamer attacks against hordes. How
> is the damage calculated ? Does a heavy flamer cause in this
> particular case:
>
> A: 8+1d5 (flamer)+1d5 (cleanse and purify) hits against a horde ? if
> so, does each hit inflict 2 magnitude damage on the horde due to
> unrelenting devastation, as the flamer is a heavy non blast weapon?
>
> B: 8+1d5 (flamer) +1d5 (cleanse and purify) hits against a horde,
> leading to a total of 8+2d5+1d5 (unrelenting devastation) magnitude
> damage ?
>
> And a related question, can a horde make an agility check to avoid
> flamer damage ? We already know it does not make the subsequential
> test to not catch on fire. Is the first test also not taking place ?
> Would a flamer shot than simply translate to one quarter range + 1d5 +
> possible ability bonuses hits, without any further tests ?

Hello there!

The answer is B, and Hordes do not normally dodge or avoid flamer attacks. A flamer shot essentially is automatic damage and there is no roll to hit (as long as the Horde is in range).

tkis said:

So you are guaranteed 8+1d5 hits up to 120 meters? Without having to roll to hit? That sounds op (and I run a BA Librarian who has Avenger). I won't run it that way as a GM. You have to hit, modified inversely by range and horde size.

I don't understand why they have never said: for the AG test all to-hit modifiers work with a reversed sign, except for this and this modifier. Or even easier: the shooter does not use his BS skill but 100-(target AG) to hit. You won't even have to flip signs anymore.

Alex

Up to 120 metres? Flame weapons just reach 10/20/30 metres out in a 30 (or whichever it is) degree cone and bathes everyone caught in this area with flames. BS and range penalities/bonuses has nothing to do with it.

BrotharTearer said:

Well, 30m is the base range isn't it? Extreme range goes up to 4x base range, I believe. Unless there is a special rule for flamers I am not aware of?

Alex

ak-73 said:

Check Flame special weapon trait.

"Flame weapons project a cone of flame out to the Range off the weapon. Unlike other weapons, flamers have just one range. When fired, they cast fiery death out to this distance. The wielder does not need to Test Ballistic Skill; he simply fires. The flame’s path is a cone-shaped area extending in a 30 degree arc from the firer out to the weapon’s Range."

BrotharTearer said:

Ah, okay. I looked up the Flame weapons descriptions in the armoury chapter only. Thanks.

Alex