See i thought just add up all the highest point models together and they is what you should make it. I think it comes out to like 175 or something for now b/c they box set is all they have so far and that allow ppl who just bought the bosx set so far to be able to play

what about the models listed on dustgame.com they dont seem to have tourament point values posted

id love to get a ryu

lordzool said:

Nope, none of the models there come with cards and are not tournament legal...

is it more for the world of dust and not so attached to the game sorta idea

Yes and most of the models are the wrong scale anyway. Most of the ones on that site are 1/35th scale.

ok well thats good to know thanks guys and gals (if there are any here)

Stuff like this has me worried on how well they will support the game. How up to date will they keep these point values? Cyclone is releasing soon as well as the walker kits which have new variants which have no updated costs on them, so how long till they update these values? Also as mentioned, what about the model kit units that you can buy?

The 2 unknown heroes on the tourny list are probably the promo hero figs that retailers get in their retail game night kits. They are supposed to be previews of heroes coming in future sets.

What is being released now is all product that was manufactured before FFG took the licence, all they have done so far is breakdown Operation Cyclone and sell the units as seperate sets. The cardboard for those units was printed and is being used (I'm sure you all have noticed that the FFG logo on the core game is a sticker over the old logo). Operation Cyclone is now packaged in a new box so will have FFG on it but the cards inside had already been made so will be old points costs.

My guess is that the next expansion will have the new points costs and when FFG have to produce new stock they will take advantage of that to update the cards.

This change will actually enable the game to expand further than the 2 and 4 points cost system did as it was hard to put a cost on units with the variation is effectiveness but such a limited costing range.

The model kits that are available are not official and I'm not surprised by that. Those models will be released in a future expansion and FFG don't want to loose out on revenue. And then there is the fact that out of the two models that are available that had cards made for them one is Russian so can't be used anyway as the Russians are not released yet.

If FFG get the releases out on time and put some missions on the website then the game will keep getting bigger and more people will join the Dust community.

So I got a glimpse of the new heroes friday when my store got his kit in. The 2 new heroes are in the league kit. One is axis and one is allies. Stephan comes with a flamer and has assault. while Johnny One Eyes has a HMG and a special ability called Badass (literally) the guy I normally go to saw this and immediately called FFG and asked them what it does and they dont have a clue and said it will be in the operation cyclone box. so yea. have fun with that. The point of the kit is to give you a sneak peek of the 2 heroes and whom ever wins the league is suppose to get one and so forth. Also the pins are suppose to be for special events.

reptilebro1 said:

i would believe such armies will be top rated armies because the actiavton dynamic favors more units over better ones for most scenarios , and unless your TO makes a scenario based on total annialation , that is pretty much the way i see it staying .

the super cheap costs of the recon units means you can flood the field with them , so any scenario that calls for you to reach X section , or last untill turn X means that such cheap units are the way to go . and it strikes me more as a marketing ploy than an actual means of suggesting a real points value that reflects what happens when you play the game . and i find that sad . recon units are really good for what they were designed for , and if you get them to a square with hard cover , they become even better as they last a little longer .

i have played/run well over 100 games , and these values seem based on a PERCIEVED disparity of combat effectiveness , that i have not seen actually play out . i have seen some people point to the PERCIEVED overpowered abilities of say the BBQ squade , and i would happily play in tournies using the original simplified points costs and face off against 8 BBQ squades in a 16 point game , i have faced off against them enough , that i know from experience that they are not under priced or over powered , they are just different . its like alot of the people who complained about how broken some units were before the game was even released , just based off what they saw in the rules , when in reality , the even though a BBQ squad rolls 12 dice worth of shotguns , i have seen them roll tons of misses all to often , and get descimated before they even really get a chance to attack .

how many of you play on bigger boards because things change a lot the bigger the board is ? most of our games are on my gridded bedsheets , so we play on areas of atleast 4X4 feet for some small test games , or 4X6 feet for some larger fun .

and while a vocal MINORITY may like the tourny points set up , i would remind you that you are still a minority compared to the total number of units sold . i still demo the game , and i still see people fall in love with the game based on what they see in the box . if the units were as uneven as some of you imply , then why do you STILL play the game ? there has always been a small biy of grumbling by some that one unit is better than another , but this game is great enough that we are all still here , and it still keeps growing . i demoed it to a girl gamer today while i was waiting for my player to do some more testing of out bunker rules . she lit up when i showed it to her , he LOVED it .

and while some have suggested that the next printing will use revised points , i would hope for the sake of the game that they dont . the game as is makes it very accessable and open to new players . the revised points just dont relfect what i have seen play out over 100+games over 4 and a half months .

if a small group wants to play revised values , thats fine , but i for one wont be running any official tournies , and if anyone else here in town does , i wont be attending , its just not in the spirit that this game appears to have been written in , and does not (in my experience ) reflect real equality on the table top .

I disagree reptilebro - I think the new points system works for growing the game. BBQ is more than preceived overpowered in our games.I think the game would struggle to grow with commited player who want to try different army groups and different options if only the basic system existed. The great thing is that if FFG sticks to both point systems - basic player can use the uncomplicated lists and points and those developing interesting combination and start to build diff listscan use points - best of both worlds : )

In addition you can make it a requirement of the Tournament to ensure e.g. no more than 60% of your army can be made up of either infrantry or mechs.

Winter79 said:

i see posts time and again about how over powered the BBQ squade is , and how under powered the recon units are . so let me pose the reality to the group this way :

it goes back to the concept of bringing a knife to a gun fight .

if you are facing an army with lots of tanks , what squad do you want to take ? the recon squads ? no , you want to take in tank hunters . when facing tanks , the recon squads are alot less effective .

if you are facing an army of infantry , who do you want to take ? tank hunters ? no , you take in the rcon squads where their machine guns roll plenty of dice at good range . in an infantry fight , the tank huntes are alot less effective .

if you are facing a player on a totaly open vacant battle field , who do you bring ? infantry ? no , you take in walkers with unlimited range

each squad is equal to every other squad in that they all have an intended role in an army that they excel at , and even the BBQ squad is even . think how people would skip taking it if it DIDNT have fast , despite its high number of dice rolled . and yes it rolls alot of dice for the shotguns and flame thrower, but none at range 2 or even 3 , so unless they get right on top of you , its not a huge deal . and as i said as the battle fields get bigger , the BBQ squad gets weaker because their limted range means you can force them to maneuver to a placement that lets you riddle them with machine gun fire . all you have to do is mentally look at the board , and knowing that they move 3 squares or less a turn , you know where they can move to . this isnt like most other games where movement is done in inches , and you have to guess where their range will put them .

and i say this as someone who mostly plays the germans , so i face them a few times a week , often 2 or more BBQ squads per game , pretty much every week since this game came out .

the points values are presumably based on a percieved value system based on all things being equal , but in reality , on the battle field its never really equal , its stacked to favor one type of unit or another , so to have accurate points vaules you would really have to assign a value to each unit based on the scenario played and how each unit plays out in that particular scenario rather than versus each other on a totaly equal battle field .

as the game progresses , its pretty much a given that the battle fields will grow well beyond only 9 boards , and all the units that come out will still have the same equal value on the battle field when employed in their intended roles .

and let me clarify one of my above comments when i ask why you are still playing . i am not suggesting that anyone voicing concerns should leave , but in all the years i have gamed , i have only seen 3 reasons to play a game :

1) you are being forced to play , this is most natbly observed when gamers try to prush their nongamer friends to play , despite the friend not wanting to , though it can also be some one pressured to play across genre , such as a minis gamer being pressured to play a CCG despite not liking CCG's

2) hangers on , those gamers that just follow a group , they arent really into any game , and thus dont really own any game pieces or boooks or anything other than dice and paper . every thing they play with is something some one lent them . they dont really do anything but follow .

3) because you reallllllllly like the game . the tourny values only came out a few weeks ago , and we were all happily still playing up until that point , none of us had quit just because some felt one squad was better than another , and our numbers have continued to grow without the revised point vaules .

of those that have posted that they bought the game and sold it off , thier dislike didnt seem to have anything to do with the points , but rather the mechaincs of the game or some percieved notion that it lacked tactics .

See this is why I say force a force organization. Like 1 Hero 2 Troops and a Walker or something to balance out that. B/c in a tournament if you took 200 pts of Recon and I took 200 pts of Ludwig or Pounder and there is an objective all I have to do is circle the objective and you cannot go near it and you have nothing to destroy my tank and you cannot go diagonal in between my walkers. This is also why I like how 40k is set up with the 1 HQ 2 Troop requirement.

GrandInquisitorKris said:

So, I'm curious, do you think that the Recon Boys and the Recon Grenadiers are exactly equal in power?

Ebonsword said:

no , not EXACTLY the same , but they each fill the same rolls in a slightly different way . both are stellar at attacking infantry , at range 4 , a longer range than the other squads who lose one or more waepons until they are closer . the recon boys are slightly better at clearing infantry in cover using their UGLS at range 3 , the recon genadiers have a chance to damage a vehicle at range 2 .

either way , when i play either faction , the first squads i grab are the recon squads because unless my opponent is only going to play walkers , the recon squads allow me to hunt my opponents infantry , and alot of people want to go heavy on either specialty squads like the BBQ and laser grenadiers , OR one of their factions 2 tank hunting squads . recoon is they way to go for me .

as i said above , they all have thier rolls to play in each army , and in their roll they shine .

and each army is equal in its own right . yes some units are a little better in one regard or other when compared on a one on one basis between the 2 factions , but when you compare the armies as a whole , one unit might have a slight advantage or dissadvanatge , but its made up for by all the other units you take . the reason i play the germans mostly is because a few players that come around exclusivly play the americans , but i could take either army equally happily .

further above , i quoted a paragraph by reptilebro , and it was the wrong section that i quoted ( i am on alot of alergy meication these last few days , so my spelling has only gotten worse :S ) , he mentioned taking 10 recon boys squads and a pounder , which i had already mentioned on another forum as the way to go , flooding the field with recon squads , and maybe one walker , and i stand by that as what i see as the top teir army . right now i dont have time to proxy test it , but having played in other games over the years that had a similar activation mechanic , and having played in so many games of DT to see how the units and dice work , that army has a very real very serious advantage that mixed armies dont . that advantage would be seriously increased in higher point games when command squads come out , and more heros arise that have a repair or medic ability . and that may be even more breakable when we see what effects artillery have on the fields .

the bigger the battle field , the bigger the points , and the more mass armies have a chance to exploit an opponents weakness .

and arkangl when talking up this game , i would NEVER say it should be just like 40K , i know way to may people who hate GW , and 40K in particular , and when i have done demos , i have had tons of people who were against trying a minis game based on their experiences with 40K , to be replaced by enjoyment as they realise this game is NOT 40k , and there by enjoyable . and as far as denying my force with 200 points of walkrs , that would only work against the allies if they dont take a pounder , 10 squades of axis recon grenadiers would give me 30 panzer fausts in addition to a walker if i took one .

the advantages of taking mass armies based on the current revised tourny points system is easily counterable in a single stroke by just keeping the old system .

now if you guys will excuse me , i am heading back to BGG , i check in here once in a while to see what is going on , but i like their page set up more , its got access to so much on one page , i just like it better for my stuff .

I only meant the force organization not the game the game is broken as hell with the newest army overpowering the previous.

There is a whole lot of speculation here. has anyone actually played by the tournament points? Anyone play a huge recon army or a small elite army?

If not, then precisely how much is all this talk worth?

We have been using the tournament points costs for a few weeks now and the costing works much better than the old system.

At 2 points the BBQ Boys are underpriced byond belief. The only reason it works in the starter set is because the Recon Boys balance them out when you look at the whole army against the Axis army. When you are free to take whatever units you want then the 2 points for the BBQ Boys is a joke.

I feel the 30 points for the BBQ Boys is fine, some of our group are not convinced yet.

I will be looking at using the following points and see if that feels right:

BBQ Boys with a Recon Boys unit costs 45 points
A BBQ Boys unit on its own costs 35 points

I played against a proxied entire recon army the other day and it was funny b/c in any mission where it says kill all I won horribly. Then when it says claim objective I used my walkers and blocked the entrance if I could and put my guys behind them.

I really think that the BBQ squad will be devasting when the transports come out. Or if they can ever "parachute" onto the board. Im really expecting that, if and when the air units come out.