I have a player that is new to the universe of 40k that wants to duel wield force swords. I have explained that even if the rules allow it (I couldn't find something that said no, but maybe you all can help) it just isn't done. Am I right or wrong on that?

What rules are there on wielding two Force swords, power fists, power swords, etc..... Is there anything that would say specifically yes or no to this?

What fluff exists to support or reject this idea? Is it heresy to wield two powerfists (and no, he hasn't been reading the angry marines, lol).

Lastly he asked if he could wield a powerfist (LH) and a forcesword (RH). This seems more reasonable, but still a bit out of flavor to me.

PS: I have explained rep and requisition and he knows he can't get any power weapons right now, but I was wondering what the communities thoughts are on this.

Thanks

Two force weapons would be a no in my book. I wouldn't allow two activations per round which makes the second force weapon worthless.

Power fist and force weapon combo I wouldn't have a problem with.

I would want to point out one of the various disadvantages that would pose though...

One of the key benefits IMHO of the power sword is it's ability to destroy other weapons with a successful Parry. If they are dual wielding it with a Power Fist (which has the unwieldy trait) the GM may not allow him the opportunity to Parry. That being the case, he would loose one of his only defensive abilities in favor of dealing higher damage.

That is an interesting thought though. Is there a for sure on the idea that using one unwieldy item stops all parring? Isn't a storm hammer unwieldy, but you can still block with a storm shield?

Weapon traits only apply to that weapon, not all of them you are carrying. You could use a flame pistol in melee and as along as you have your sword in your other hand you can parry.

Two Power Weapon wouldn't be much of a problem, 2 Lightning Claws for examples is a "common" sight,. two force weapons would be possible but only one of them would be allowed the extra damage WP test.

Santiago said:

Yes, please note the difference between Power weapons and Force weapons; the names are similar so it's really easy to read and mistake one for the other if you're not careful.

Did Ross comment on the question folks had regarding the use of Force weapons and swift/lightning attacks? My gut says you only get one activated Force Sword hit per turn, regardless of how you go about it, but I can't recall (or be bothered to do the nice thing and search the forums)

According to the errata, channeling psychic power through a force weapon generates psychic phenomena/ perils of the warp just like anything else. So that's a bit of a limitation.

as a slight aside the space crusade board game from the early 90s had as a weapon choice a power fist and power axe combo for sergeants. so its definitely not unheard of for power weapons. but I think more likely with two different ones than two the same. as for force weapons I can't think of any example of them being dual wielded. not really sure why that is. but remember that as watch master you have the right to deny any request for equipment in game if you can give a reasonable explanation that force weapons are beyond value and the armoury doesn't just hand them out two at a time

I'd point out to the player that using a force weapon is essentially using psi powers: It requires concentration and focus to 'engergise' the blow, and that simply can't be done more that once per combat round.

If that doesn't work, hit them with a book while shouting 'no'!

Where does it say you may only Focus Power once per turn. I assume you may only attack once with Psychic Powers but Deathwatch changes the game when it says "A Focus Power test is a Willpower Test that determines whether a functions successful. The amount of time it takes to make this test is determined by the power being used and may be a Free Action, Half Action, Full Action or Reaction"

Thats different from Dark Heresy where the errata is pretty clear on it. There it says " “Making a Focus Power Action is the psychic equivalent of a Standard Attack Action, and counts as such for purposes of determining what else a psyker can do in a round"

Thats a distint difference and I wonder if its intentional.

It doesn't. It's an explanation that you can give the player that sounds reasonable and will hopefully discourage them from being silly.

Preface: I say this with respect, and not snarkiness.

I'm getting the impression (and I'm more than willing to be wrong) that an issue is being skirted here. Something about the potential to deal a lot (and sure, here we're talking about A LOT ) of damage, and wanting to keep that away from the players' characters. Everybody runs their own games, and each group is going to have fun in a different way, and all of that. But if my hunch is right, and the main problem is game balance, don't sweat it. If you think it'd be overpowered, just tell the player that. You don't have to go through the book looking for a rule that says, "No, you can't do that." If you think there should be a rule against it, that's what house rules are for.

I'll admit, I would not have a problem with two force weapons if the player was willing to shell out the requisition allocation and risk perils of the warp with every swing. But I think I've become more easygoing about that stuff than I used to be.

It's your game as much as any one player's, and if you just plain think something isn't okay (for whatever reason) you should feel comfortable having a dialogue about that.

Baron Throatpunch said:

But used Fettered you don't risk any Perils of the Warp and you sacrifice only 1.5 DoS.

Alex

Having read da roolz since my last post, it says you can ramp up the damage "whenever the psyker damages an opponent" as a free action. So, by a strict interpretation of what is in the book, doing the deed multiple times in a turn is not really a gray area so much as it is explicitly allowed. More than two-weapon wielder (melee), you should consider what'll happen when the librarian gets swift attack. Which can happen at rank 3. In fact, I'm not seeing two-weapon wielder (melee) on the librarian advancement scheme. Unless I'm just not seeing it, a librarian couldn't get it until rank 7 from the general space marine advances scheme (once again, from the errata.)

Baron Throatpunch said:

Yeah but it is odd. Iirc, in the current 40K ruleset using Force Weapon's power counts as psy use which you can do only once per turn as a run-of-the-mill Librarian.

Alex

True. Discussions of that sort tend to get bogged down with people wondering just how much is an abstraction in the miniatures game, and what exactly a turn represents. I wholeheartedly agree with your point though. There is a bit of a discrepancy.

One thing to remember here is that I and my players are ok with the "Just No" answer, but if possible I would like to ground that decision some rules or fluff reasoning.

Thanks for all the good chatter here.

Baron Throatpunch said:

Well, what is notable is the whole "channeling counts as psy power use" thing. That is independent of scale.

Alex

Another quick question/thought that I couldn't see clarified in the rules (again, maybe I just missed it).

The focus power test for the weapon, is that

• once per combat to "Turn the weapon on"?
• once per round for all of the attacks?
• once per hit?

The next questions are:

• If once per combat encounter is it a full or half action?
• if once per round is it a half or free action? can it be sustained?
• if once per hit I assume it is a free action, but can it be done more than once a round?

I will RTFM when I get home to see if I can flush these answers out better.

That said it if is once per combat or once per round I will limit the player to one force weapon. If if is once hit, and each test can cause perils of the warp, then I will think about allowing it and let the player suffer those perils.

Chrynoble said:

Per hit.

Chrynoble said:

Free action after you've landed your hit. If you want to. It's a focus power test, so it will cause perils if you're unlucky and not using fettered.

BrotharTearer said:

After re-reading this myself, it seems to be once per combat round for a single damaging hit, regardless of the number of attacks or hits. Given the rules and responses to similar questions from FFG, one might even argue that use of the activation would preclude the use of multiple attacks or two weapon fighting alltogether, though I don't personally see that. What I do clearly see is that you'd get to activate your force sword(s) ONCE per round, and only after you do damage.

I base this opinion on the following:

• "whenever a psyker damages an opponent, he may, as a Free Action, channel psychic force and killing will into the blade. This requires a Focus Power Test using Opposed Willpower" (p155)
• "A focus power test is a willpower Test that determines whether a functions successful. The amount of time it takes to make this test is determined by the power being used and may be a Free Action, Half Action, Full Action, or Reaction." (p185)
• "Unless otherwise noted, using a psychic power counts as using a standard attack action." (Ross Watson in response to the question: "DH Eratta indicates that Focusing a Power is the same as taking an attack, however that doesn't seem to be mentioned in Deathwatch. Does activating a psychic power using focus power count as taking an attack? Could a Librarian then fire his bolt pistol and then cast Smite? If equipped with a suspensor, could he then fire a full auto burst and then cast Smite?") - note in this case he's not answering this specific question as I wasn't asking it at the time. If you want another thread on this particular point of the question (no the 'can I have two of them' part of the issue) we have yet another thread on this (and it's conclusions and lack therof) here: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=212&efcid=3&efidt=409308&efpag=1#413647
  

Baron Throatpunch said:

Actually, my first though on pretty much every 'my player wants to use X' query is always 'Have I ever seen this on a model, and if so is it some kind of uber-relic or exception'. Because if I haven't seen it on a model, then I tend to form my opinion around that. Let's face it: There's been a lot of really stupid models produced with really unlikely weapons... and if the suggested combination STILL hasn't passed in front of my eyeballs, then 'no' tends to be my answer, because such a load-out is at conflict with the setting. So 'two force swords' goes on my same mental discard pile as PA-armoured figures wielding thunder hammers in one hand, twin storm bolters, twin arm-mounts, two heavy weapons, et cetera...

Balance is normally my next pausing point, but frankly the 'two force swords' hadn't even got past the first filter!

@Siranui

where is the problem with powerarmored marines carring a thundehammer one-handed? and by the way there are alot of minitures carrieng a TH one handed

Charmander said:

I got exactly the other impression from the rules when I reread them last night. The words "whenever" and "free-action" occured offen enough for me to think they could do it on each and every hit; with a seperate test and the risks associated with that of course. Your point 3 is something I didn't have access to, and it is interesting but I do see a difference between a simple focus test, and an invoke test to use a power.

I am going to go with trying it on each hit and see how that plays out, if it is terrible I will change the rule. I am lucky to have players that will roll with stuff like that without complaint. If they weren't that way I would have to stomp on the min/maxing a lot sooner in the process.

Siranui said:

The "Have I ever seen it on a model" test is my first filter too, and your right it fails that filter. But then my players pull out stuff like this:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440271a&prodId=prod1070013a