There's some overlap in the Hatred Talents, and I'm wondering if they stack.

If I have Hatred (Eldar) and Hatred (Psykers), do I get +20 to WS against an Eldar Warlock?

Against a master of the Pale Throng - a Mutant/Psyker/Heretic - is it potentially +30 to WS if I have all three of the appropriate Hatred Talents?

Per the fluff, all (non-xenos) Psykers are also Mutants, correct?

Per the fluff, all Chaos Space Marines are also Heretics, correct?

Also, for Scourge of Heretics, would CSMs count as heretics here even if they don't fall under Hatred (Heretics) since there doesn't seem to be one of these high-end Talents (one for Heretics, one for Daemons, and one for Xenos).

I have read some simular posts to this, I think in the DH forums, and now with blood of martyrs you have the Holy Hatred talent which is basicly anything not directly working for the imperium. This is how I have been handling it, not sure it is best, but I do want to incourage the talents being used.

First hatred that applies=Full Bonus

Second Hatred that applies= 1/2 Bonus

No bonus for hatreds beyond the 2nd, but a player with 4 hatreds can purchess the Holy Hatred talent from blood of martyrs for 750 as an elite advance. (now can hate almost everyone! yay!)

I also make is so that the player has to be aware of what they are, So if some cloaked heretic is firing on them they get no bonus unless they reveal who they are or a Eldar Pathfinder in camo ect you get the point.

> 2. Does the WS bonus provided by different hatreds stack ? E.g. a
> character with hatred pyskers and hatred chaos space marines attacks a
> chaos space marine sorceror, does he get +20 to his WS because both
> hatreds apply, or +10 because hatred applies only once irrespective of
> the number of fitting hatreds ?

Hatred Talents do not normally stack.

Ross Watson
Senior RPG Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

In that case, some Hatred selections are certainly better than others.

Hatred (Heretics) is always going to be a better choice than Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) since the latter are included in the former along with all other heretics. Hatred (Heretics) should also cover rogue psykers and sorcerers too (they have the heretic tag on their stat boxes). I think that only Black Templars (and Chaplains, possibly more from Rites of Battle) get to take Hatred (Heretics), and it is kinda their thing, so I guess it's not really too bad.

Hatred (Mutants) will include all human psykers (but not sorcerers since they don't actually have powers as a result of mutation), but Hatred (Psykers) still cover xenos psykers, sorcerers, and (possibly) daemons with psyker powers.

HappyDaze said:

Some skills are clearly better then others, some talents are clearly better then others, some psychic powers and so on....But i do see your point, with diffrent types of the same talent being more easily comparable, but you can also see Hatred (Heretics) and Hatred (Psykers) as completely different Talents, at that point the argument, that not all Talents are equally usefull applies again. For my part, I am fine with the statement that a hatred effect either applies or not, without any degrees of hatred existing. Many RPGs use a mechanic, where similar types of bonuses do not stack.

It just seems a bit wasteful that the Black Templars get Hatred (Heretics), Hatred (Mutants), and Hatred (Psykers) each for 500 xp. Taking multiple Hatreds will pretty quickly become redundant, and of those listed, the Heretics one is typically going to be far more useful for a typical BT - though perhaps less so than Psykers for a Deathwatch member hunting xenos psykers.

HappyDaze said:

Traditionally, Hatred (Heretics) has been a difficult talent to obtain, with only a very few appearances in specific advance packages/alternate ranks/etc, simply because it's so broad in potential effect, with more specific Hatred being easier to obtain. It's much the same reason why there's no Hatred (Xenos) - you have to take Hatred talents for specific species, rather than covering all of them at once.

From what we've seen of the Chaplain, Hatred (Heretics) can be taken there. And we all know that hateful bastards in the Black Templars sport it!

N0-1_H3r3 said:

That's where Hunter of Aliens comes in. While not a real Hatred talent, it does the job even better.

BrotharTearer said:

Which would bring in the next logical question, Does Hunter of Aliens, Slayer of Daemons and or Scourge of Heretics stack. Though I am sure as with the hatreds the offical stand on this would be no they do not, I agree with happy that it would clearly make Scourge of Heretics the better choice. Which is why I allow the half bonus for a second ability, you paid the exp only fair. On the other hand I do tend to give simular bonuses to elite NPCs and it all balances in the end to a degree.

Nimon said:

No, these (Hunter/Slayer/Scourge) don't stack with one another - or rather, there are not enemies that overlap. Enemies are either Heretic, Xenos, Daemon, or none of these. You can find out what an enemy is by looking at the little skull in the upper right of their profile. It will either say Heretic, Xenos, Daemon, or nothing.

Hatred is a bit different and more murky since it has selections that are often subgroups within these (CSMs are a subgroup of Heretics, and Orks/Tyranids/Eldar/etc. are subgroups of Xenos, etc.) and outside of them (Mutants are not by definition Heretics, Xenos, or Daemons).

While multiple Hatreds are not cumulative, I'm certain that you can stack a Hatred along with a Hunter/Slayer/Scourge. I intend to take both Hatred (Heretics) and Scourge of Heretics for a Black Templar, and there is an Ultramarine taking both Hatred (Tyranids) and Hunter of Aliens.

btw u can be psyker and not be heretic (not by BT standards), u can be mutant and be faithfull to BIG E (still explain this to BT), and heresy is sometimes thin blue line (for BT everything that isnt BT starts to be heretical)

boruta666 said:

Yeah, what's worst is you can be Roboute Guilliman, spiritual liege of almost all Space Marines ( ) and hero-saint of the Imperium but if some guy is convinced that you're a heretic, he'll get the Hatred(Heretic) bonus. It's not about what you are, it's about how they perceive you and how they feel about you.

Alex

boruta666 said:

I mentioned that not all psykers are heretics, but all human rogue/unsanctioned psykers are heretics by definition. Mutants are different, but organized mutants that oppose the Imperium are pretty likely to be members of a group branded as heretics (and individual mutants are hardly worth the notice of the Astartes).

HappyDaze said:

Well with the Example of Scourge of Heretics it specificly says its up to the GM, so it is just as blurry as the Hatreds, but if thats how you view it then perhaps view hatreds the same.

Thank you so much for the little skull hint, i never paid attention to it, and it is easy to overlook

NP. And the last line of Scourge of Heretics is mainly for the GM to rule on when making his own opponents since what is/is not a heretic is more nebulous that what is/is not a xenos or daemon - those opponents already marked as a Heretic on their profiles are not really left up to the GM's call.

In my point of wiew as the ordos are made the Heretics are those in the imperial domains that fight against the imperial creed.

So hatred gheretic doen't work for xenos specie or long left imperial forces like the CSM ( 10 thousands years ago they hve been heretics, now they are Chaos forces), but could work against SM chapter brand heretic by the inquisition, traitor IG, various not sanctionned imperial creed tendencies, etc... But most of all they have to be imperial people or only recently revolting against the imperium.

Hatred mutant could work on mutant and unsanctionned psyker, but not the sanctionned one or navigator because even if they are mutant the imperium give them an other place in the imperial society.

Hatred psyker would work against all type of psy using character (including chaos SM sorcerers). Not wizzard who used the warp by learning rituals, chants and prayers.

Hatred is a usefull talent but need to be really clear for the player and GM alike in what kind of ennemy is take in account.

HappyDaze said:

Yes for a human psyker it does stand to reason that you wouldn't be fighting them unless they were heretics. But potentially, at least, there might be mission where you have to take out Imperial forces that are misguided or controlled for some reason. Is a Sanctioned Psyker under the sway of an Enslaver a heretic? And of of course even if you didn't hate a particular xeno race you could still hate the psyker amoungst them.

Face Eater said:

I don't believe I disputed any of this.

I don't believe that someone acting not of their own will (mind controlled) is a heretic. However, humans that have thrown in their lot with xenos - like humans fighting for the Tau - would be considered heretics, since they made a choice (however poor the options were) to fight against the Imperium.

I wouldn't let you stack. If you hate something so much that you get bonuses to hit it, how can one hate it 'more'? It doesn't seem at all sensible.

As always it's down to the GM if the player gets a bonus. The system is 'gamey' so the GM's calls are allowed to be, too. Just because the demon looks like a xenos and could theoretically be one in the eyes of the player, it doesn't mean that they can have the bonus...