When you apply an Init penalty in a RPG you are causing the player to physically move slower. If the power fist was that heavy and slow it would not be a viable weapon. You might as well say that carrying a power fist causes a -10 to Agility, as this would better mimic the TT Init penalty.
Two handed weapons and stb
Siranui said:
What's wrong with that? Seems to me to be a sensible way to fight. Even better: Parry with a power sword, so you can break stuff.
I don't see any problem with an RPG not mimicking an oversimplified tabletop wargame rule. The whole idea that some melee weapons are 'very slow' is a bizarre one at the best of times.
No, don't get me wrong, I don't find the fact that it's not perfectly mimicked isn't a problem. I'm not saing it's not a smart tactic either.
What I'm trying to say is that from a very specific perspective of "I want more variety in my marine's weapons, especially my assault marines, and would like to see two handed weapons perform better in the game" this is an issue. Attacking with a Powerfist and a balanced weapon in your off hand and using TWW is superior in most current cases to attacking with a two handed weapon; you get your cake of the two handed weapon in the power fist (damage profile is equivalent or better than 2handers), and you get to eat it too because you have an off hand weapon that is balanced so you get your parry and your bonus attack. The relic blade does decent damage but A) you ahve to be a hero to get access to it and b) you can do more straight damage output even in that case with TWW, you just have to decide if the uber power field is cool enough for the situation (and I do think that breaking everyone's weapons is a pretty good way to balance it, especially given their req costs are similar).
Personally it's not a big deal to me, aside from demon hammers and relic blades, most of my imagry of 40k melee is with single handed weapons. The problem is if you want 2 handers to be better than they are.
As for the idea that melee weapons are of different speeds makes total sense to me personally, I simply am not typically a fan of how it complicates the game in most cases, and how it kind of relies on weapons being used as actually intended (like two handed swords)
@Uncertain: I don't think having an initiative penalty to a weapon that does 2d10 + SB x 3 with the power quality one handed makes it unviable, even a -10 to agility would make it pretty compelling if you ask me. You're -10 to dodge but most things other than masters aren't going to survive your 1-3 + 1 hits with that beast. Mind you that's just for arguments sake, as I'm not personally planning on implementing any of that, gimping the power fist, or working to 'fix' two handers. It needs something though, IMHO, if you want to make two handers more viable (though your suggestions of reach, blast, or the like do bring the 2 hander into a more interesting place).
Charmander said:
darknite said:
Actually basic math would say that a 2-Handed weapon with Swift or Lightning Attack is the preferred option. As many or more attacks, better damage and no penalty to hit for the same Full Action.
Good thing I'm not a 12-year old.
Well you don't get more attacks unless the TWW somehow didn't take swift or lightning- otherwise you get 3 with the 2h weapon and 4 with two 1h weapons. You're spot on about the penalty to attack, and sometimes that can be the difference between life and death.
Real trick here I think is that power fist and with the power of an upright in the palm of your hand. Unless you're going for fluff and style, what melee character wouldn't want that (and speaking of which, total sidebar, but in TT you get an initiative penalty for wielding a power fist to represent how unwieldy it is, maybe something like that would be in order), and if you pair it up with just about any other weapon...
Me and you are of a singular mind on this issue so I will leave you too it I am no longer going to explain the differance.
I did a first pass at a few Two-Handed weapon traits. I posted them in the House Rules section here .
Charmander said:
What I'm trying to say is that from a very specific perspective of "I want more variety in my marine's weapons, especially my assault marines, and would like to see two handed weapons perform better in the game" this is an issue. Attacking with a Powerfist and a balanced weapon in your off hand and using TWW is superior in most current cases to attacking with a two handed weapon; you get your cake of the two handed weapon in the power fist (damage profile is equivalent or better than 2handers), and you get to eat it too because you have an off hand weapon that is balanced so you get your parry and your bonus attack. The relic blade does decent damage but A) you ahve to be a hero to get access to it and b) you can do more straight damage output even in that case with TWW, you just have to decide if the uber power field is cool enough for the situation (and I do think that breaking everyone's weapons is a pretty good way to balance it, especially given their req costs are similar).
As for the idea that melee weapons are of different speeds makes total sense to me personally, I simply am not typically a fan of how it complicates the game in most cases, and how it kind of relies on weapons being used as actually intended (like two handed swords)
40k has always been big on fighting with two weapons, it seems. The power fist is a great weapon until you remember that it renders the other hand pretty much useless. That's it's downside and a wily GM should play to it to ensure that it's not always the most attractive option.
It may indeed be the case that the powerfist is such a good weapon in-canon that it has essentially rendered two-handers a little bit obsolete. I don't particularly have a problem with that and it's nice to see a game set in another time actually bother shifting the paradigms a little.
The truth of the matter is that different melee weapons are not really of vastly different speeds at all. If they were, then the faster weapon would always win and the slower weapon would never get used. Gamers have a long history of abiding to the mythology that anything blunt or wielded in two hands is slow. It's really not at all true: Two handed swords are fast and elegant weapon systems relying on skill to use, not big, slow choppers which relied on strength.
I haven't really put a ton of thought into making two-handers more attractive. The relic-blade is great on its own. And I'm happy to give a bonus of either a flat +10 or lifting the maximum bonus to +80 for a player using a single-hander in both hands to represent the increased control and ability to easily deliver blows to either side. I'm not sure that it's worth complicating matters with extra talents.
Let's calculate it through:
-4 attacks, 3 Power Fist, 1 Power Sword with -10 each.
-3 attacks with Relic Blade with +10 (master-crafted) each.
Relic Blade doesn't sound so underpowered. The actual problem is that the first combo might easier achieve defense overload with 4 attacks (can't parry/dodge a 3rd successful attack normally). But then again the Relic Blade hits more often unless in the hands of a very skilled fighter.
On the defensive side, the first combo has the advantage of getting +10 for a balanced parry. Unfortunately it wouldn't really use it in a direct duel with the Relic Blade because of its breaking powers. In a direct one-on-one, the Relic Blade has the advantage. It has the advantage against any opponent that relies on parries mainly.
Against others it seems to even out, perhaps a slight advantage to the dual combo. Oh, and the dual combo has the advantage against hordes, I'd say.
Otoh, the Relic Blade has the advantage on the charge action (sans prenatural speed) which might matter. And another thing: Blademaster talent is more effective with the RB.
I'm just fine with things as they are. Perhaps 1 or 2 more damage points to the Relic Blade.
Alex
my group have tested many, many house rules about 2h swords and other 2h weapons in DW.
In DW 2h weapons are made in very simple way, take 1h weapon add d10-1 damage, move parry ability step down, incrase pen a bit.
in our earlier games 2h weapons looked as weaker choice then TWW with multi attack
we have tried to balance it a bit, first we tried adding additional Sb modifier to damage, to overpowered in the end.
we have returned to RAW stats for 2h weapons after few sessions
then later stage of game kicked in and most players have moved to 2h weapons with combat shields (balanced! but worthless for counter attack) (we have many 2h variants of chainswords, chainaxes, power blades of all size and shape) that additional dice of damage was enough to fight with more demanding enemies, 3 damaging hits were much better than 3+1 weak ones.
in the end we have changed only one thing with 2h weapons, while improving craftsmanship of melee weapon 1h is done RAW, while 2h weapons add craft damage modifier per dice of base damage, as example: MC 1h PS +10WS +2dam, MC 2h PS +10WS +4dam.
boruta666 said:
my group have tested many, many house rules about 2h swords and other 2h weapons in DW.
In DW 2h weapons are made in very simple way, take 1h weapon add d10-1 damage, move parry ability step down, incrase pen a bit.
in our earlier games 2h weapons looked as weaker choice then TWW with multi attack
we have tried to balance it a bit, first we tried adding additional Sb modifier to damage, to overpowered in the end.
we have returned to RAW stats for 2h weapons after few sessions
then later stage of game kicked in and most players have moved to 2h weapons with combat shields (balanced! but worthless for counter attack) (we have many 2h variants of chainswords, chainaxes, power blades of all size and shape) that additional dice of damage was enough to fight with more demanding enemies, 3 damaging hits were much better than 3+1 weak ones.
in the end we have changed only one thing with 2h weapons, while improving craftsmanship of melee weapon 1h is done RAW, while 2h weapons add craft damage modifier per dice of base damage, as example: MC 1h PS +10WS +2dam, MC 2h PS +10WS +4dam.
Means you'd have to readjust the Relic Blade accordingly. Anyway I still think the combination of Power Fist + Power Sword is a good one.
Did any of you tried twin thunderhammers? Keeping a elite/master-tier enemies stunned seems like a good idea generally. (Against daemons you'd need a sanctified thunderhammer though, as you know...
)
Alex
ak-73 said:
Means you'd have to readjust the Relic Blade accordingly. Anyway I still think the combination of Power Fist + Power Sword is a good one.
Did any of you tried twin thunderhammers? Keeping a elite/master-tier enemies stunned seems like a good idea generally. (Against daemons you'd need a sanctified thunderhammer though, as you know...
)
Alex
We have redone or house ruled almost every weapon in DW, Relic Blade included.
and yes, once one of my players armed his assault marine with double thunderhammers (bolt pistol, 6 grenades, melta bomb and nothing more was allowed due to lack of space), and i must say that if he would be alone that setting would be bad, but since he parried his equipment with 2nd assault marine in full defensive gear (stormshield, PS, grenades, BP), as team they were like killing machines. One provoked elite/champion/masters class of enemies to fight while he was in full defence then guy with twin thunderhammers striked on enemy back.
boruta666 said:
We have redone or house ruled almost every weapon in DW, Relic Blade included.
and yes, once one of my players armed his assault marine with double thunderhammers (bolt pistol, 6 grenades, melta bomb and nothing more was allowed due to lack of space), and i must say that if he would be alone that setting would be bad, but since he parried his equipment with 2nd assault marine in full defensive gear (stormshield, PS, grenades, BP), as team they were like killing machines. One provoked elite/champion/masters class of enemies to fight while he was in full defence then guy with twin thunderhammers striked on enemy back.
Off Topic, but I wanted to say despite the idea of dual wielding thunderhammers hurts my head a little bit, the concept that you've got two assault marines and one acts as the defensive lineman for the other is just...cool. I always love it when players build and play their characters so that they work toegether in ways like that.
off topic
quite normal behavior in my gaming group tbh. U would need to see combinations and tactics when whole kill-team is on field of battle, especially when they have more accurate intelligence about it. DW is probably only RPG in witch i allow such degree of team play and trust among players.
Edit: we use different stats for 2h thunderhammer, 1h version and terminator version too.