I searched but didn't find an answer for this, sorry if I missed it.

In the war game models generally add extra strength bonus's (+2 str in fantasy for example) when wielding a two handed weapon. Is this true for the rpg as well? Or is it still just weapon dmg + stb?

Thanks

Chrynoble said:

Two-handed weapon have their additional damage figured into the weapon damage stat. For example in Rogue Trader a Sword might do 1d10+2 or whatever and a 2-H sword would do 2d10 damage. To both the normal strength bonus would get added. Certain weapons like power fist or chain fist have special rules though.

Alex

Makes sense, that is what we found for the latest editions of the wargame as well. The bonus is built into the stat line of the weapon.

Thanks for the quick answer.

Chrynoble said:

It might be a decent house rule to incorperate though too double the stb to encourage something other then duel wielding. After all even 2d10+stb is not the same as 1d10+stb+1d10+stb. I might allow my that my next session and see if it ends up too powerfull since one of my players does wield a 2hander.

What about a weapon built like a hand and a half? Able to be used well with one hand yet with the hilt that could allow a two handed grip.

Somewhere I could swear I remember such rules that if you use a second hand it added something, maybe in regular DH. Either way I honestly believe there should be something like this. That's just me though =)

Nimon said:

I like the idea, especially if it gives some variety to the floor. One thing I'd caution is before implementing consider the swift/lightning attack talents. You get the 2-3 attacks with your main hand, and a single attack with your off hand, so the multiplier for two handed weapons may get out of control. Quick example, not taking into consideration anything like tearing, penetration, or base damage bonus aside from dice:

• Strength 50 with a two handed sword and lightning attack: 2d10+20, + 2d10+20, +2d10+20 = average 93 damage
• Strength 50 with two single handed weapons and lightning attack: 1d10+10, + 1d10+10, +1d10+10, +1d10+10 = average 63 damage

Also, remember that to fight with two weapons you need to buy TWW. The expenditure of xp should provide some sort of benefit as compared to someone that spent no xp.

That is true, maybe tweak the Two-Weapon Wielding talent to also read "or when using a 2h weapon gain twice the stb, if using swift/lightning attack with a 2h weapon gain 2 attacks/3 attacks respectivly with a +10/+20 respectivly bonus to W.S to represent the sureness of the strike when guided by two hands."

This would make it not more potent then duel wielding, but possibly serve a seperate purpose. The bonus might be nice to have if facing a daemon price, but the extra attacks would be nice vs a horde.

muzzyman1981 said:

Give a bonus to either PEN (to represent the blows being more controlled and accurate) or WS or Parry, rather than to damage. It more accurately portrays the point of using a weapon with two hands.

I do like this rule, but this thread made me think of something else too:

The way armor and toughness work in this game one hit that does 40 damage is a better than two hits that do 20 damage. Perhapps that is why their is no extra bonus for wielding two handed.

For instance:

A npc with Armor 8, and toughness 8 takes 8 damage off each 0-pen hit.

1d10 + 10 = average of 16

2d10 + 10 = average of 21

so with the two 1h hits they total 0 dmg on average where as the 2h hit will do 5 dmg.

This is of course more pronounced on high Armor/Toughness opponents, and less true or even reversed on low Armor/Toughness opponents. Two-handed weapons seem ineffective against hordes. This means the players would do well to match their weapon to the expected threat which I like. I think I am going to go for a while with the system as is and only add rules if stuff isn't as well played out as this appears to be designed.

I will be pointing out the single massive blow math to my players though, I figure marines know there gear.

Chrynoble said:

Ya that is what I was thinking though, by giving the extra damage per hit the 2h becomes the choice vs elites, but the additional hits from the offhand makes duel wield the choice for hordes. So your melee guy might carry 2 powers swords, but then have a two hander on his back for those special encouters. Even with rules as is this is still the case since its 2d10+StB, I have not played yet to try out my house rule to see if its to much if it is I will just go back to RAW as is. In addition I have heard that Rites of Battle has some new rules and abilities regarding 2h melee weapons.

Don't 2-handed weapons already have enhanced basic damage representing the use of both hands? Double Str Bonus is way over the top IMHO.

Yes they do, and yes it would be!

darknite said:

It is basic math, if you duel wield you get 1d10+StB+1d10+StB , if you two hand wield it is 2d10+StB, which one is more? Even a 12 year old gamer would go duel wielder instead of 2h with this being the case.

The other ideas persented here I think are a better track than strength, as strength gets out of hand when combined with other powers- bonuses to hit, potentially a smaller damage bonus, or the one I gravitate towards is bonus to penetration for some reason.

Again though, the TWW character has to spend XP in order to get that (one) additional attack, if you want to give a real bump to two handed weapons I'd make it a talent, and make the player spend XP on it. As it is you tend to lose the special qualites of one handed weapons (particularly balanced) in exchange for an extra die of damage. If the two handed weapon does more than that, then you get into a situation where everyone but the people with TWW grab the two handed sword which seems silly to me.

If anyone goes with a bonus to hit and tries it out, I'd be interested to see how it plays up against the TWWs in melee with hordes. I'm thinking about the extra hit marines get per 2 DoS vs hordes. You're -10 with every hit when TWW, so a significant bonus to hit with a two hander could bring it closer to someone with tww in melee versus hordes.

And as an aside, I'd never let a player carry two single handed melee weapons plus a two handed melee weapon unless they were carrying nothing else

@Chrynoble: The only issue I take with the math you present is that I have a hunch that, at least starting out, chainswords will not be uncommon, so you have to add in the tearing quality as well as things like Flesh Renderer (or power fields which give you a high pen) to the equation. At middle levels, you have the ability to pick up the mighty power fist as well, which does as much (if not more) damage than most of the two handed weapons (and still leaves hand #2 open to use a secondary weapon). The book isn't rich with very many compelling two handed weapons to start with, which doesn't help the situation.

Nimon said:

That's not even the main thing. Many of the DW's enemies will have two parries or dodges. More important than the additional damage seems to be the additional attack so that you have a chance to overload the enemy.

Especially since you didn't mention that the enemies soak applies to dual wield twice also.

Alex

I think what really needs to be addressed is that there are currently, at least to my memory, no talents that grant any special attacks or give other bonuses to two handed weapons. What I think is needed to incentivize two handed weapons over dual wielding is a few talents.

Something that grants reach, a melee attack with range 2, similar to whips.

An area effect along the lines of Blast(2)

Something that grants you the equivalent of TWW(melee). When using a 2-handed weapon you gain an off hand attack, as if using two weapons, by striking with both the normal strike and by using the butt end of the weapon as a club.

Nimon said:

While the StB often outclasses the Armor and Toughness bonus, don't forget that if you attack with two attacks they will be applied twice, so the math is actually a little more complicated than you are saying.

ItsUncertainWho said:

What is needed to give incentive to 2-H weapons is a close combat encounter with a Hive Tyrant or Daemon Prince. Do that math with a chainsword. Power swords are effective too but the DW Relic is very good against the master-tier enemies.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I think the main issue in that case is the DW Relic comes into play late in the game, whereas power and chainswords come in much earlier, and the bonus swing from TWW is pretty awesome. I think if a handful of 'better' 2h weapons were included in the list outside of the relic sword, it could be a much more interesting choice (especially for those not taking tww).

That said, home-growing your own 2h weapons by simply adding a d10 to the profiles of chain/power/whatever weapons and calling them 2h could do the trick.

Honestly I like the addition of the talents and special abilities just because some of the abilities seem to spice things up, but I do tend to wonder when the addition of talents and special rules tips the balance from interesting to game slowing. It's not like the marines have a significant lack of stopping power already.

Nimon said:

Actually basic math would say that a 2-Handed weapon with Swift or Lightning Attack is the preferred option. As many or more attacks, better damage and no penalty to hit for the same Full Action.

Good thing I'm not a 12-year old.

I think the damage is ok as it is.
Dual wielding is better vs groups of enemies while twohanders are better vs tougher opponents.

But while lots of onehanders are balanced on the other side most twohanders are unbalanced or even unwieldy. And as it is there is no trade-off for that drawback.

darknite said:

Well you don't get more attacks unless the TWW somehow didn't take swift or lightning- otherwise you get 3 with the 2h weapon and 4 with two 1h weapons. You're spot on about the penalty to attack, and sometimes that can be the difference between life and death.

Real trick here I think is that power fist and with the power of an upright in the palm of your hand. Unless you're going for fluff and style, what melee character wouldn't want that (and speaking of which, total sidebar, but in TT you get an initiative penalty for wielding a power fist to represent how unwieldy it is, maybe something like that would be in order), and if you pair it up with just about any other weapon...

Charmander said:

The initiative penalty in the TT keeps getting brought up but this is already covered by the Unwieldy trait that disallows parries. The power fist is too slow to parry with, that should be all the initiative penalty that is needed.

ItsUncertainWho said:

But that penalty is not felt at all by a Marine with a Power Fist and Chainsword (like the one all Assault Marines have from the start). Attacking with the Power Fist and pulling your Parry from the Chainsword is not only legal, but smart. However, in the TT, you'd still get that Initiative penalty if you tried this...

HappyDaze said:

Erm...yup. What's wrong with that? Seems to me to be a sensible way to fight. Even better: Parry with a power sword, so you can break stuff.

I don't see any problem with an RPG not mimicking an oversimplified tabletop wargame rule. The whole idea that some melee weapons are 'very slow' is a bizarre one at the best of times.