Da Boss said:

Oupphh... That may take a while, I'll try to find it. Understandably I'm relying on that one document way more often than the actual sources as it saves me the time to scroll through countless books.

Da Boss said:

The problem I see is in this statement by the Sister that makes it appear as if it is a perfectly normal and accepted behavior. I have no problems with Sororitas being corrupted and thus deviating from established regulations - but saying that the Orders don't mind is a massive mistake in my eyes. Again, I get that the books are meant as a satire and not an accurate depiction of the setting, but many readers seem unable to see the difference.

Da Boss said:

Oh. You may not want to know.
Or rather, look it up in Wikipedia. That said, its "traditional games" section often comes up with a lot of interesting ideas or just a lot of funny stuff. Here's an example:

Da Boss said:

Hmm. They have a gigantic set of rules, I'd think it must be in there somewhere. Here are the ones Andy Hoare has written:

Should any Sister, in her deeds, words or thoughts, in peace or at war in any way commit a sin, she should willingly and immediately make her fault known to her Superior, to make amends with a pure heart. And if she does not usually fail in this matter, let her be given but a week's penance, but if her sin is great let her go apart from the company of her Sisters, so that she may not sit at table with them, nor kneel in prayer, nor fight the Emperor's foes at their side. Let her go all but alone, submitting herself to the will of the almighty God-Emperor of Mankind. Let her don the penitent hood and take up the ceremonial eviscerator, and seek her redemption upon the fold of battle.
- Rule CCCLII, the Rule of the Sororitas Volume VI

So that she may it all times carry out her sacred duties to her Order and Our Lord the Emperor, it is fitting that all Sisters obey their Superior, strictly and in all things. As soon as an order is issued by a Superior, that order should be carried out as if the blessed Dominica herself had commanded it, for it is written - 'Her will be done'
- Rule CCXXXIX, the Rule of the Sororitas. Volume XXV

Let it be known to all present and future Sisters of our Order that they must fast at the High Vigils of Saint Thor, Saint Aspira, Saint Jason, Saint Orlanda, Saint Dolan and Saint Constantine of Alamar. Upon the Holy Days of Saint Gherick the Confessor, Saint Decessio and Saint Lucius of Agatha, let them meditate. Let them fast for not less than five days preceding the Most Holy Days of Our Founding Sisters, Saints Dominica, Katherine. Silvana, Mina, Lucia and Arabella. Let them observe silence for the vigils of Saint Capilene, Saint Josmane and Saint Lacena. Upon the Low Days of Saints Yamalla and Corvus the Sabines, Saint Tomasi, Saint Dufaux and most especially Saint Josina, they should both fast and maintain silence, and upon the Days of Saint Praxedes. Saint Kozak and Saint Verevya they should meditate upon martyrdom. Upon the Feast of Saint Jasone, they must fast, but may consider themselves at liberty between matins and vespers.
- Rule DCCLXXXV, the Rule of the Sororitas. Volume XII

Just look at those numbers...

Okay, finally found the source. It -was- in the SoB Codex. Page 33, bottom right text block.

Thanks got it

intersting to read that whilst women from the Pogenium could not then enter the Priesthood, Navy or become Commissars - but counld become Inquisitors

The Clergy and Commissariat limitation no longer seems to be in effect, as we've seen female Clergy and Commissars later on... That said, the Clerics may have simply been a regional thing depending on how the Ministorum operates on their given world - it might just be that the Schola Progenium tries to assign every one of their progena to where they are most useful/needed, and in the case of young girls who qualify for combat that would be the Adepta Sororitas (mostly the non-militant Orders), whilst the washouts get sent to the Adeptus Terra for a "career" as scribes. Clerics don't all come from the Schola Progenium, after all, so it is possible that female Clergy is simply recruited locally, circumventing this limitation.

I'm not sure about whether the Commissariat also recruits from elsewhere other than the Schola Progenium, though. Though female Commissars are still incredibly rare - so far I've only ever seen two in the entirety of 40k. Might have to do with those all-female Guard Regiments, perhaps?

As for the Inquisition ... well, they do draw from all layers of society. Though it'd still be a very rare occurrence and I'd think they don't become Inquisitors right away but rather enter training as Acolytes with the goal to slowly mold them into Inquisitors - a "patronage" of sorts. For example, my Inquisition Illustrated Guide mentions the case of one Inquisitor Ivixia Dannica who was a progena at the Alena-Mora Schola Progenium and destined to become a member of the Adepta Sororitas. However, Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Covenant later visited the Schola and had her transferred to his personal retinue as an Acolyte, henceforth tutoring her as a successor.

And regarding the Navy ... well, given how the ships work (I greatly recommend Chamber's short story "Ancient History" from the Dark Imperium anthology) I can understand them not wanting to have young women mingle with the crew (they appear to be much harder to control than an Imperial Guard Regiment, naturally also due to the decreased "visibility" within the dark labyrinthine bowels of the ship). It also serves to strengthen the connection to how ships were run during the age of sailing.

Lynata said:

Agreed - the fluff has shifted somewhat (in good way IMO) - although I am trying to recall any female Clerics - I know the original concet is based on the Medieaval Church? The female Commissar area confuses the issue a little - at least one source suggests that female Comissars are often posted to the all female regiments but as you say their appeances are rare - although IIRC there was a Female Lord Commissar or similar? I am not sure if the Navy Commissariat also recruits from the Schola - there is, to my knowledge very little fluff about them and they might recruit inhouse (infleet?) given the rather unique nature of the Navy?

Sadly I don't have the Illustrated Guide one of my few gaps in 40K literature! I am guessing its good?

I have aread a few of the navy books - Relentless etc and see what you mean - although I am guessing some of the women produced by the Schola would be able to handle themselves / be quite imposing in appearance!? Might have as much trouble with the other Officers though as it seems a very insular world for one not born into a Navy family - but then I guess the same would be true of Schola produced male officers - unless an orphen of the same?

Da Boss said:

Blood of Martyrs mentions a female Cardinal in the Calixis Sector. I'm guessing it's just another case as with the Imperial Guard - females do exist, GW kinda just mostly "forgets about them". As for the comparison to the medieval Church that is a valid point, but given that the Ministorum adapts to the local cultures of rediscovered worlds it would be small wonder to see worlds where all clergy is male, or all clergy is female, or where they are mixed. Similar to IG Regiments.

Actually, the Sisters Sabine - sent out to infiltrate local cults and prepare them for the arrival of the Missionarus Galaxia fleets - often appear as prophets and religious leaders preparing the population for Imperial annexation. That's "sort of" a clerical role, too, I guess.

Da Boss said:

Well, when the Navy draws NCOs from the Schola they can get their Commissars there as well, I guess. When the Munitorum Commissariat lacks dedicated training facilities for its Commissar Cadets I don't know why the Navy would have them, but that's just a guess of course.

Da Boss said:

Sadly I don't have the Illustrated Guide one of my few gaps in 40K literature! I am guessing its good?

Hmm, yes and no... I thought it was a very interesting read, even if it is just a sort of "official encyclopedia" with lots of short entries about stuff. It also has a lot of pictures, though, and its official character makes it a more reliable source than Lexicanum, even if I would have wished for more detailed entries on some keywords. With some very few exceptions (explanations on the different Ordos and Inquisitorial trends plus, as it is written by Abnett, detailed accounts on the characters Ravenor and Eisenhorn) it really is just about 2-4 sentences per term.

It depends on how much you're interested in the Inquisition. For Dark Heresy I would consider it a nice resource, though I did purchase it before the RPG was even released and never regretted having done so. It was a good read. Could have been more detailed on some things, but still.

Da Boss said:

I think the "Navy family" bloodline stuff only counts for officers, and progena do not get recruited as officers. In the Guard they have the chance to work their way up, but in the (sailing age British-style) Navy I think an NCO will always remain an NCO and officer ranks are reserved for the nobility.

Given how traditional and conservative the Navy Admiralty is thinking, I guess they might just outright ban any female deckmen and NCOs from their ships as "bad influence on crew morale" (like how one Admiral proposed to just weld-shut the airlocks once the crew is onboard to keep them from ever leaving the ship when docked), similar to how it was done in its real world role model up until a few decades ago. Such limitations might not be in effect for the officer class (apparently there are at least female pilots? I've heard that mentioned, but so far have seen no source for it), but officers rarely mingle with the crew in any capacity and leave that to the NCOs anyways.

Hmm seemsmlike I shall have to try and get that book then!

re the Navy: the novel Gunheads (Steve Parker) about the recovery of the Fortress of Arrrogance from the Orks has a female Navy Vulcan gunship pilot (Call sign Eagle Three)- we don't learn her name before she is overwhelmed by several Ork fighter bombers.....

re the Schola recruits entering the Navy - They are discribed as a Petty Officers - if we follow the "Age of Sail" theme this would likely mean midshipmen - or the Young Gentlemen of the Navy - some useful info here:

http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/info_sheets_nav_rankings.htm

Also historically it seems that the old age of sail ships often carried quite a few women on board - officially or unofficially.

One source here:

http://www.abebooks.com/Female-Tars-women-aboard-ship-age/2776707135/bd

Da Boss said:

An interesting read! Mind you, it doesn't really change much (given that it really seems to have been unofficial, and that 40k is heavily modeled after the cliché rather than reality), but it would offer up some interesting ideas for characters or NPCs. Such as a girl dressing as a man to join the crew.

In any case, thanks for mentioning it - I had not heard of that part before. It seems to have been hushed up similar to the orders of female knights that did exist in medieval Europe until they got dissolved by the Pope due to not conforming to the idea that women shouldn't fight and all (not something you get told in school, is it?). Makes you wonder how many accounts of martial accomplishments by women got lost simply due to their gender.

Oh, and also thanks for finally giving me a souce for female Navy pilots!

Aprt from the females in the Navy - the important point I thought was that the prducts of the Schola would likely be the equivalent of Mishipmen - so officers - rather than the NCo's which are the Warrent Officers?

I had read a few accounts and seen a couple of documentaries talking about women aboard the "Wooden Walls" -certainly some good plots to be had.......... although best to avoid falling into "Carry on......."?

Don't know anything about the female orders of Knights - are there some places / books to read about them - might be very useful for my WFRP games...........

Lynata said:

You do not hear about Female Gunners for the MPs on combat convoys, but they exsist too. First time I saw one I was alittle amazed, because our unit was all males with a few exceptions in the rear who were support. More and more I think we will have to leave behind the notions of a weaker sex and any racial or sexual preferance predjucices in light of the simple fact We Need Anyone and Everyone Willing and Able to Defend our Nation(what ever nation yours might be.) And I would like to think that in the year 40k, this would be more common place.

Da Boss said:

I think that depends on their origin - the Navy cares a lot about bloodline, so commoner progena may become NCOs whilst progena that were of noble blood become Midshipsmen? Just a wild guess, of course - there's not much fluff to go by here, apart from what was already quoted.

Da Boss said:

Here's something I dug up with a very quick google search on some names I remembered; I'm sure there is more if you look for the appropriate key words (such as the names of these Orders):
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/wom-kn.htm
http://sacredfems.blogspot.com/2006/01/knights-in-white-satin.html

Nimon said:

Hmm - I don't know, a certain amount of prejudice could also serve as another element of the "grimdarkness" that makes up this setting, though. That said, it does look like such clichés could only exist locally instead of as a general trait of the Imperium, especially considering that we do have mixed and even fully-female Guard regiments in the fluff, not to mention the image of female warriors propagated by the Adepta Sororitas. I think Frontier and Feudal Worlds would be the most likely candidates for gender segregation (with either patriarchal or matriarchal societies) whereas Imperial, Hive and Forge Worlds are completely egalitarian when it comes to the sexes and everyone is equally worthless.

Naturally, this kind of equality could also be the result not only of social evolution (and the Imperial Creed not containing a passage about women being weaker) but a sheer need of able bodies in the Imperium - just look at Israel drafting men and women to their defense forces equally, with the positive side effect of overcoming the gender segregation that is still deeply ingrained in most societies. There are still quite a lot of steps to take, but considering how it looked like a mere century ago we have already come a very long way.