In a game where you're already playing post human acid spitting demi-gawds in ancients suits forged to make you death incarnate I'm more inclined to lean to the rule of cool. Especially as it means I can also use similar ideas for villains. But then I'm also a fan of Exalted which also is a game about being as epic as you can be.

Since marine armor comes with recoil gloves built in, and they're ambidexterous I've pointed out the possibility of the Devastator marine dual wielding heavy bolters due to the armor ability he rolled up (which I witnessed). In the end it means that if they have the ability to get that kind of gear, the mission they're about to face should require it. If it doesn't...why do they have that much requisition to begin with?

I personally think the idea of twin storm bolters, with chain melee attachments, sounds like something an epic hero facing down impossible horrors should have. No stupider than two powerfists with bolters built into them.

I bet if Miyamoto Musashi were a space marine he would agree with me. Though he'd likely just use a power oar to smite his foes.

Finally, it sounds as if there's more of an issue with the player than the idea he's attempting.

If so, perhaps you should steer clear of games like Deathwatch and Exalted where PCs start as badarses and are expected to be epic from the get go. Or better yet, let him have his fun but make sure the adventure focuses on some aspect he'll need to use other abilities for, if not flat out sideline him until his one trick pony gets to shine.

If it's just your own personal quibble....you're the GM and you get to make the rules but I've always found 'because it's dumb' to be a poor argument. Make sure you use some of the earlier bits of advice to provide a in game reason they can't do it, which hopefully makes it a role play issue instead of a rules play one.

George Labour said:

So you know, you can't wield a heavy bolter one handed. Death from Afar only allows you to treat the heavy bolter as a basic weapon for the purposes of moving and firing, not for dual wielding or anything else.

George Labour said:

Although I disagree that dual wielding storm bolters falls into the cool category, I totally agree with your comment here. It helps to have actual rationale beyond 'dumb' or your players may feel disenfranchised.

AH yes I knew I forgot some major tidbit with that devastator analogy, I just remember it as being a particularly fond topic during character generation. Still, if the player had that particular armor ability, then dual wielding storm bolters might almost make sense. It's not as if bulky weapons and storm bolters aren't already found on some marines.

Grey knights and Blood Angel Sanguinary guard both have forearm mounted bolters, stormbolters, and other weapons plus larger sword and polearm style weapons. Perhaps you'd want to steer the player in that direction instead? Using a forearm mounted weapon with something like a power axe, or thunder hammer.

Rule of Cool is fine. But I personally don't call such flagrant system abuse cool.

I don't mind a player hanging off the edge of a bridge with one hand and shooting a bolter at the alien hanging onto his ankle with the other - that's cool. But just walking around with a pair of two of the best weapons in the game isn't cool to me - it's munchkin.

Funny how it's Storm Bolters - a 'problem weapon' too. Surely plasma would look cooler... oh wait: Their stats aren't as good. I smell cheese! If it's ok to fire an SB in each hand, then why isn't every space marine issued two bolters? They'd be twice as dangerous, surely?

Siranui said:

That's right. If it was effective, it would be standard issue.

Alex

If a regular bolter's war spirit is hard to keep placated and maintained, then a storm bolter is likely far worse. One reason only elite unites get them. Incidentally the entirety of the Deathwatch's combat force is an elite unit. They get not just the resources of the chapter's that contribute marines, but the Ordos Xenos, various Adeptus mechanicus divisions, and likely the Administratum and high lords as well.

I imagine the only better equipped group of marines in the galaxy would be the Grey Knights, and then only because of the esoteric gear they're required to deploy.

George Labour said:

That they are will stocked is no doubt. But you don't see regular Marines wielding two bolters (not even HQs), thus why should one allow them to dual-wield SBs?

Alex

Marines get bolt pistols and bolters, after all. Just give every marine an extra bolter and it would double their firepower if indeed they can be fired one-handed with no real penalty...

Like I said, why would a Marine need two bolters, when one is enough to do the job? Any Marine that needs two bolters to meet out the Emperor's justice is obviously defective or lacking training or honour, in the eyes of his peers.

Not to mention how impractical it is, despite the cool Rambo-esque attraction. "Proteus, get that door open!", "Aye, brother-sergeant! Let me just holster/sling/mag-lock one of these bolters!" - "Brother Proteus, why do you have TWO bolters?", "Erm.. 'cus?"

Marneus Calgar wields two power fists (taken from a chaos champion) and two bolters and no one seems to be in any hurry to call him out on his lack of honor or adhering to the Codex Astartes. Vulkan He'stan is literally overloaded with enough gear to outfit an entire squad. Azrael has little aliens carrieing around spare equipment for him to use.

Granted the average DW marine is not Chapter master epic, but to say they never do X because it'd be silly isn't much of an argument. 40k is an inherently nonsensical universe which is as much a tribute to metal album covers as it is a vibrant collage of grimdark sci-fi fantasies.

Good example of the silly being normal...marine shoulder pads.

The best arguments are that the marine would find close combat excessively inconvenient (which the GM should point out, then let the player hang himself), the need to use a hand for something other than killing people, and the available resources of the PC's location.

Now, if you want a role play solution beyond the quartermaster fix, talk to the person playing the squad leader. Have him order the storm fiend to share his rare and valuable equipment with another member of the squad. This way they can get the weapons, and if you want you can set things up so your dual wielder can have the occasional chance to go John Woo on things.

Might also want to limit the availability of storm bolters with fire selectors though.

Naturally, there are exceptions to every rule. I was speaking in a broader sense of the fluff. I'm all for those exceptions, if roleplayed well, but simply min-maxing 'cus you can is just meh.

One man's munchkin is another man's epic four barreled stand against a mob of orks and or daemons.

George Labour said:

You say that now, but wait until your players kill the big bad guy in turn one, simply because you chose to follow dice rolls, and let the players take iniative. Sure the system is innately brutal, but not allowing enemies to even act before they die is kinda wrong. And jacking up their wounds by 100% really is not the right answer.

Once again, my solution is to straight up tell them that if they carry two storm bolters, they are unable to carry any other weapon. The mere threat of melee will get them in line.

Remember, two storm bolters is like carrying four bolters in size, these are bulky weapons.

There's way to make an enemy less vulnerable to a one shot. If I feel a need to pull out a 'boss monster' on them then it'll be as epic as they are, without just being hundreds of wounds. I'd also likely make this big bad smart enough to try and stack the scene in his favor.....rather than standing out in the open asking to be shot.

I also never said storm bolters weren't bulky weapons. Even if the player wanted to go with forearm mounts I'd likely penalize their mobility in a manner similar to lightning claws or powerfists, especially if they go with a backpack ammo supply. Ammo would also be limited to maybe one extra, plus what's on the guns, or the backpack plus one 'clip'.

Finally, I'm not in competition with my players so I don't need to fret about things being 'to easy' on them. They're responsible adults (in the eyes of the law anyways) and they can make their own decisions on how they want to enjoy the game I'm running. If they say it's to easy then I'll worry. If they're having fun, and I'm having fun then I see no need to fret and plot.

KommissarK said:

A Space Marine's unarmed attacks are quite capable of taking out a fair range of enemies, and those that are too tough to kill with an armoured boot to the face are ones you'd really rather be shooting.

Or spitting acid on.

I would just like to point out that a Space Marine wielding a pair of Storm Bolters is not going to be helpless in melee. After all, all Space Marines have both the Unarmed Master and Unarmed Warrior talents; the later per the Deathwatch Living Errata . 1d10+SB; typically +10, is nothing to scoff at against most opponents. Kicks, knee strikes and elbows, not to forget headbutts.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

I already pointed this out two posts ago, but you did add in the numbers, so thanks.

For the power gamers and the like who want to base their characters around dual wielding Storm Bolters, you may wish to consider allowing them, but with penalties.

For example, how are they going to reload? With a typical Bolter, you've got the free hand, or a weapon that can be easily stowed to allow the players to reload. Adding a penalty of an additional full round to put their weapons away, reload, and rearm themselves may help curb some of the over the top enthusiasm.

That may not seem like too drastic a change, but when you consider who quickly they can burn through their ammo, it could help put it all in to perspective.

Just a thought.

Ummmmm this is crazy and I havent taken the time to completely read but has the guy given thought about how even IF he could shoot both in the same turn anything more than SS is a Full Action and therefore his thoughts of Full Auto'ing two Storm Bolters at once is unthinkable. Basically he would have a Storm Bolter and a really big Pistol with a really big magazine.

That's of course not taking into account what the Watch Commander has to say about Brother Shmoe asking to bring two highly valuable weapons when clearly only one is needed or even feasable of being used at once.

muzzyman1981 said:

1) The requesting Space Marine has the appropriate level of renown indicating he knows what the **** he's doing.

2) The mission is of sufficient importance to grant sufficient Req to cover the requested weapons.

3) The Watch Commander looks at both of the above and realizes that he should STFU and let the Marine do things his own way - micromanaging Deathwatch Kill-Teams doesn't seem particularly appropriate or wise.

HappyDaze said:

I would disagree to a point here- renown is gained by blowing **** up and killing the enemies of the Emperor, not necesarily for being clever or tactically sound. Also, respected isn't that high on the totem pole.

HappyDaze said:

Two storm bolters costs 40 req, that's not really hard to get. I think it's within reason for a GM (and or Watch Commander/Captain) to say you can't spend it on purchasing two of the same weapon like that. Even with the eratted/reduced req rates you're looking at one novice primary (16), two novice secondary (22), and one novice tertiary (6) and you've got 44. That's not, IMHO, a mission that is 'important enough' for two storm bolters.

HappyDaze said:

Watch Captains and Commanders are there, typically, because they know what they're doing, moreso than a KT Battle Brother with 20-39 renown giving him the 'respected' rank. Something tells me the Captains and Comanders will outrank the PCs in most areas, until potentially the higher levels. I'm not sure what's unwise about enforcing the setting the GM is after, unless that enforcement is targeting a particular player and just being a **** about things.

Point being is that if a GM doesn't want something in their game, tell the player, and if the player tries to insist, the WCs are the perfect in-game way to explain things.

Renown is renown. Doesn't matter how you get it, it shows you can get stuff done. Deathwatch doesn't really care if you do it with finesse or brute force (like two Storm Bolters) - you accomplish the mission, you get the renown.

If a 40 Req mission is not important enough for two Storm Bolters then the Storm Bolter needs a higher Req requirement. If you have the Req, then you can get it.

Using Watch Captains as the enforcers of the GM's preferences is not a good suggestion IMO. There very well could be Watch Captains that themselves use a pair of Storm Bolters, so a butt hurt GM that doesn't like it should still try to be fair and realize that not every NPC in setting will see things the way the GM does - he's not a Borg queen running countless faceless drones (the GM needs to roleplay too).

muzzyman1981 said:

As Per RAW this is totally allowable. To catch you up, dual wielding allows you to fire two weapons on full auto that can be 'reasonably wielded in one hand'. Recoil gloves in your PA allow you to wield basic weapons in one hand without restriction. The only restriction left on them is that they can't be used in melee like pistols.

The only real question left is whether or not a given GM wants to allow their players to do it. Some of us find it ridiculous (like me), and others find it part of the over the top setting that is (let's face it, it totally can be in places) 40k. But to me, I don't see it on a model (and chapter masters don't count for me) I'm not letting it in the door 9 times out of 10.

Charmander said:

Sadly for you, there's a lot you can do with the RPG that's not modeled for the mini game. Using the mini game - which by necessity is a simplification based upon scale - to decide what's possible in a game that focuses much greater attention on a small group of Marines seems rather backwards to me.