HappyDaze said:

I think you're losing a bit track of the state of the debate though. We're arguing why some of us are refuting said rule. Anyway, we're starting to go in circles.

Alex

Larin said:

IMHO, while the members of the DW KT are PCs, and ARE heroes, they are not the same as some of the named characters in say Table Top. Not at first anyhow. The key is 'to grow into'. AK answered this before I could, but yes, if a player aimed for this, there might be exceptions made at higher levels. Entry, or even mid-level, characters aren't this level to me. But however it played out these would be just that: exceptions . Once everyone has the capability on, quite literally, their first mission to dual wield a bolter and get close to the power of a storm or heavy bolter for 5 req, you've passed out of the realm of special and exception and entered the front door of the cheese factory. IMO of course.

Larin said:

I view this somewhat differently- I don't view the groups as even being tasked with taking on the same objectives, the whole right tool for the job thing. To illustrate If the objective were to take a citadel, say, the IG goes in with the 5k men and armor and grinds against the defenses. The Marines go in with 100 brothers and blitzkrieg the defenders, striking behind their lines, cutting off vital parts, dividing and conquoring (well, I guess that depends on their doctrine, but anyhow). The DW doesn't go in to take the citadel, the DW goes in to take out the shield generator, the xenos commanders that are running the show, or the cogitators running the automated defenses, thus allowing the Guard or the Marines to proceede through to their objective unmolested.

Larin said:

But every assault marine has ambidexterity or they would be rubbish with two weapons, and based on the (oft hated) fluff every tac marine has been an assault marine, thus every tac marine has ambidexterity (though we do end up biting the outside of our own cheek here on this one as DW changes up the skill trees so they don't match this properly for advancement purposes). Even if it wasn't standard issue, the power level gained by having it would mean that it would be way more common than feels right for the setting

@Encumberance: As has been said, it's really hard to create a realistic system. But I think FFG did alright, as the paragraph before the chart in DW explains pretty clearly that marines have a reasonable load out, and then go on to describe what they mean by reasonable. Each GM and group is free to push the interpretation of this in subtle ways, but their descriptions are fairly clear if you actually read the paragraph and not just the part that says your marine could theoretically carry a Leman Russ on his shoulders. To me, this isn't that bad of a system, as it lets you play faster and looser with the weight of items and not worry about it.

chrismata said:

God bless the Internet

Larin said:

The unique models and characters from the TT are generally Chapter Masters and they are armed with unique Relic weapons. Unique Relic weaponry that allows this kind of dual wielding is one thing, John Wooing storm bolters is a completely different mater.

Dual wielding storm bolters is more of an "I wanna win!" statement than "I am dripping with awesome sauce due to my relic weaponry."

Rewarding a player with a custom relic weapon is a great late game award. Under those circumstances, this thread would be a completely different discussion.

I wonder once vehicles/walkers are introduced if plasma, melta, and missile launchers will become more popular with players?

That storm bolters and heavy bolter should have next to no chance to affect hard targets.

It might level the playing field.

Then again the power gamers may just want to wrist mount lascannons and shoulder mount storm bolters and carry a vortex grenade launcher.

At the very least, the passion for the game on this forum is commendable.

chrismata said:

They 'should' is subjective, and if you load some kraken rounds into your gun the penetration of your bolt weapons is close to that of plasma. Melta still has them beat, but the range on a melta is super short. Missle launchers are good, but the HB with Kraken rounds against a huge target will get more hits, maybe each one doing slightly less damage, but it's that GD autofire that is so insane.

That all said, without playtesting one can't be certain.

And passion is definitely one thing this forum has in ample supply. I will say, despite some of the heated points we disagree on, this forum overall is actually one of the most polite I've ever had the pleasure of being a member of.

Charmander said:

And all that without even the slightest hint that there is actual forum moderation.

Alex

I hate to interject cause, I know people are going to get all up in arms but, if you don't have dual wield ballistic, req'ing 2 stormbolters is useless to you (Unless you use the DH errata, which isn't for DW but some people apply it across the board for some things). It blatantly says in the DW Rulebook, if you don't have dual-weapon wielder (of the appropriate type) you don't get to attack with 2 weapons. They had a chance to errata this with their current DW errata... but didn't. So, if you play DW, with DW rules without extrapolating errata from a different rulebook (which, most folks don't see anything wrong with), dual-wielding stormbolters is only useful to Assault marines (which, is pretty baddass and useful if they've got the req to slap melee attachments onto them, and still doesn't do as much damage as the dev w/heavy bolter), and Tactical Marines when they eventually get that skill (I think around rank 4 or 5), or others, eventually, at Rank 7, when you should really have better personal options or have other things you should be doing.

Two-Weapon Fighting, 2nd bullet point.

and yes, these forums are always very polite heh (unlike another favorite, warseer), Ak & I disagree on points... like, 90% of the time, but he's never once blazed away with insults lol. In fact... no one has on the 3 sets of forums (heh kudos!)... and to the person who said if it was plasma guns people wouldn't even bother doing it...d amnit, the inner dark angel in me now wants storm-plasma guns to do this with... in terminator armor, of course

BrotherHostower said:

Well I'll be good goddmaned, you're right. I guess I've been using the other system long enough I just skimmed over that part...not the first time, probably won't be the last. To be honest, it really makes me wonder if leaving the rule the same as the DW core (pre-eratta) was on purpose or not. Whichever way you slice it, as per current RAW there isn't such a thing as attacking with two weapons without the talent in Deathwatch. Nice catch.

Charmander said:

Unfortunately not. The issue was raised last fall, Ross was asked about it and the answer was that it essentially worked the same as in DH. They just didn't include all the answers to inquiries in the errata.

Alex

* Semi-off topic -I have been working on a Grey-Knight and after them up in lexicanum it says they have stormbolter-wrist weapons built into the ageis armour, is that on only 1 wrist or 2? The models it looks like it is just 1, but have read bolters plural in some of the text.

just 1 wrist mounted stormbolter for GKs Nimon and wrist mounted incinerators (holy heavy flamers) and psycannons on terminators (at the moment, never know what the next codex coming out I think in March will show us).

And yes AK I understand that, and that Ross also said you only get to fire pistols single shot when in melee, but honestly, I'll go with RAW over RAI until the next batch of errata, as it keeps this kind of stuff to a minimum heh. I remember one of the writers for... I think it was psy powers in DH was incensed that they were changed, and then never errataed because they were changed on purpose. Just my 2 thrones mind.

I dont think its the recoil that is a problem for 'mortals' to use Astartes weapons. In the latest Gav Thorpe battles novel, a guardsman fires an Astartes bolt pistol and expects more recoil than he gets. The round leaves the barrel at reletivly low velocity, and then the rocket motor ignites. The reason 'mortals' cant easily use Astartes weapons is the simple size of them. Using 2 bolters is also well within the fluff, a Death Guard in Flight of the Eisenstein goes into battle and uses two bolters at the same time, in the prescence of his Primarch no less. So using 2 storm bolters would also be no problem for a terminator, especially if he's paying the Req cost. Just hope you dont roll a mission mishap that limits the ammo carried...

Soloman said:

That could be read as the Guardsmen expected his arm to fly off but instead it just hurt a lot. But in general seeing as Bolters damage <> proportional to the recoil you might as well make a weapon that gives a space marine no appreciable recoil (something that modern militaries dream / spend a lot of money on) that rather than the few benefits it's gets from going faster at the beginning of it's flight.

I dunno, if it doesn't have at least a small starting charge all an enemy has to do is put something over the barrel of the weapon and it cant leave the barrel, at the worst it wont leave the barrel and will jam the gun once it runs out of fuel in the shell, at best it will detonate inside the gun, destroying it. Personally I just love the image of a commissar putting his gun to the head of a trooper and the bolt shell tapping him on the forehead.

Meh: Another author didn't really think about things properly and tried to inject a bit of 'realism' without thinking about the entire issue. Sure: contemporary gyrojets have little in the way of recoil, because they fire tiny projectiles in comparison.

Bolt Shells might only have a small initial charge, but that's still got to propel a massive bit of metal with integral warhead and propulsion out of the barrel. And it needs to do it with enough power to ensure no drop in trajectory prior to the motors kicking in, so at least 100m/s to my mind. Not just in normal atmospheric pressure either, as we're talking about Space Marines, who are expected to be able to fight anywhere. So that 'small' booster charge needs to not only get the bolt out of the barrel in a normal atmosphere, but also possibly in high pressure environments and perhaps even under water. Which means that the bolt needs to have more power on the initial boost, which means more recoil in 'normal' atmospheric pressure.

you have to remember that the people who made this 40k universe and game are not gunsmiths or have a military background. I'm simply stating the fluff

Authors who don't do their homework, or have the decency to properly read the background of the universe that they're being paid good money to write in bug me.