After a lots of victories because of this card, my firends have agree that Reclaiming the fallen is way overpowered adn therefore I cannot use it.

What do you think I can say to them in order to have my card back?

It has to be a good argument to convince them.

Thanks in advance

Tell him to use Support destruction on your Grudge Thrower (so you can't at least sac at will) and not kill any of your units, maybe just corrupt them or take them for his own with the DElf Epic Spell . Or he has to kill your units, make sure each attack burns a zone, so even if faced with RtF, he loses 1 zone (from the RtF enchanced attack), you lose 2 .

From my experience, RtF is way overpowered. If your opponent play it mid to late game, it's almost impossible to recover. Even if they do it without the Grudge Thrower or Dwarf Ranger combo.
The problem is that, besides all of their powerful cards, Dwarves have also the best card drawing engine in the game. Sooner or later, they will draw RtF. If it resolves, it's game over.

Sorry, not exactly what you wanted to read but, in this case, I agree with your friends.

A friend who won't let you reclaim the fallen is nobody's friend.

Just convince one of your friends to play DE, then they will hate that person's deck more than yours. Plus, nothing's quite as amusing as mortella ripping a RtF out of your discard pile for a win. I don't know how competitive your playgroup is, but orcs, DE, and some empire decks do beat dwarves regularly, or in some cases most of the time. However, I do feel that DE and empire can be a little soul-stealing to the fun of the game.

Grove said:

wut?

It's the only card I know that can burn 2 undamaged zones in one turn, in 2 easy steps. A bit too much. You are not a good friend if you play RtF.

Said that, a few cards can counter it. One of them is High elf Disdain but then you are forced to save 2 resources every turn, just in case.....

Dam said:

Wouldn't really work, Dam, if he still runs with the Slayers of Karak Kadrin and Stand Your Ground cards. Because he can use the Slayers of Karak Kadrin to kill his own guys if they're attacking, thus still triggering the Rangers' power. Then he'll play Stand Your Ground to bring them back.

Reclaiming the Fallen is pretty beefy BUT I've also beaten the Dwarf decks running it with my new Dark Elf Control deck. It's a close fight though, with DE winning 3 out of 5.

Just save your abilities that kill units solely for the Rangers and wipe them out asap once they appear, that'll help a ton. Or, even better, nuke the Rangers' powers with the Witch Curse hex. That'll at least help with that aspect of the Dwarves' powerful abilities.

As far as stopping the actual Reclaiming the Fallen card, you're best bet is to save up Tactic-canceling cards (High Elf's Disdain) if you're running Order and use them on it. If you're running Destruction and NOT playing DE or Hand-removal, you're pretty much out of luck on it (unless you're running Slaanesh's Domination and even then it's a crap-shoot since you draw randomly with it). The biggest problem is that (annoyingly) Destruction hasn't been given a Tactic canceler, which should've been a priority the moment that Order got one.

It's fine and dandy to talk about creating some cool asymmetry between Order and Chaos so that they're not entirely the same BUT in specific cases, with certain types of incredibly useful and powerful cards (i.e., a Tactic Canceling card like High Elf's Disdain), you have to provide a balance and give both sides the chance to do that. I'm still stunned that we're sitting here without one at this time. Just hard to fathom, really.

Wytefang said:

Even if Destruction did get a tactic canceler I doubt it would change anything. It would probably be race specific, as is High Elf's Disdain, so outside of its race you would have to pay for it between 3-4 resources. Leaving this many resources at the end of your turn just in case the Dwarf tries to finish you with one tactic is suicide. On the other hand Dwarf has no problem Innovating in your turn to play Master Rune of Vallaya/Master Rune of Spite.

Off topic, just slightly here:

Is it me or are some of these "one trick I win" cards really pissing you off?

I am beginning to question my entry into this game more and more, each day.

Virgo said:

Nah, it works the same way for Destruction if they got a Tactic Canceler - you can just as easily play Innovation for your side, too. I don't agree that it's necessarily suicide. It would just add one more way to stop RtF, imho.

Of course you can also play Innovation, but not in response to RtF. If dwarf uses it and you don't have resources for canceller - you've lost. Plain and simple. And there's no way to fix this card like they faq'ed bolt thrower.

I'm quite impressed by the fact that you can play easily sparing 3-4 resources a turn

Well part of my point was that by mid-game (when you could start to expect to maybe see RtF) you should have a solid economy working and could reasonably be expected to have extra resources. It's nothing to necessarily appreciate (I know you were teasing) as much as just a good practice to do if you're facing the Dwarves and the possibility of that specific card.

If you're playing Destruction, Mortella can really put the hurt on the Dwarves if they use RtF. Furthermore, you can go heavy on the hand-destruction, as well, and Slaanesh's Domination can cause issues for RtF, too. I'm definitely not saying it's over-powered - it obviously is, from any perspective, but it CAN be managed. It surely needs to be Errata'd to a limited number of units or add the text that "does not trigger the Dwarf Rangers' innate ability."

What the game is really missing is a cheap (1-2) neutral "remove a dicard pile from the game" type of card. I don't expect to see this type of card in the near future, but it would be HIGHLY effective against several decks, and in specific Dwarves and DE which are imo the top two archetypes at this point in time.

I think the main thing that's critically missing from the game is some sort of Destruction tactics-canceler. I'm all for asymmetric game design but this is simply a type of card that is crucial to keep and help with game balance. The fact that one hasn't yet been produced makes me wonder why this has been so badly missed.

Lordpappanqui said:

I'd be mad about this if there were any competitive scene to speak of. The game balance is a joke and can only be fixed by more power creep, which is no fix at all. If I want to play "Turn 2: The Game", I'll play in Magic Legacy tournaments. Creating a competitive scene with first party support can really only come with the cycling out of cards and/or limiting Dwarf to an inordinately low amount of new stuff for at least a cycle. Also, do something to promote multifaction decks now that BT is nerfed. But the design of the game shows that it's not intended to be anything but casual, so I'm ok with it.

I'm not trying to counter your claim that "the design of the game shows that it's not intended to be anything but casual," but can you explain more specifically why you think that's the actual case with W:I?

It seems like it should be feasible as a Tournament-quality game, for the most part. Is it unbalanced cards that concern you?

Because I've recently gone toe-to-toe with a strong Dwarf deck (running 3x RtF) using my new Dark Elf control/denial deck. I usually win 3 out of 5 but it IS close, I'll admit. I guess I'm not seeing all the doom and gloom with the "meta" right now. HE indirect damage is also nasty if it can survive the early going.

In a way I'm kind of glad that some of the more short-sighted (and also self-proclaimed card experts) have ditched the game, they really weren't doing much here in the forums to help out (other than acting like colossal know-it-alls and insulting other players) and I doubt they did much more offline in public for the game, either.

We're getting to the good stuff now and this next cycle is going to be very interesting, imho. Hang in there, Qwertyuiop!

It's the lack of balance, the lack of direction for Chaos, the lack of varied competitive level cards. It feels like a lot of cards aren't as fine tuned. Coming up with "broken" combos seems to be easiest with Dwarf. They had great synergy before RTF. Now it's just sick. We could have a conversation some day, go over a big selection of cards and discuss their relevance. Top decks aren't going to be very diverse. That's going to stagnate any burgeoning competitive scene. Leagues are fun way to play competitively with restrictions. It's still very casual, though. I'm fine with that. The LCG format itself may be an issue and the fact that WI was designed as a LCG whereas COC and AGOT were not may be a factor. I dunno.

I think that this new cycle should push things in a good direction. I doubt Dwarves will have the same advantage going forward - they should still be strong but I'm guessing that other races will climb towards the top of the pile soon, too.

Personally I feel that empire is the strongest faction at the moment. In any event, in our play group all the factions other than chaos currently seem to be competitive. There are certainly a few overpowered cards at the moment including Mining Tunnels and Reclaim the Fallen, but any order deck can play answers to Reclaim (High Elves Disdain, Master Ruin of Spite, one of the damage cancelers). Destruction is not really so well set up to answer this card though, they could definitely use some new tools to deal with it (either a tactic canceler, something that you can play on your opponents turn to mass remove or corrupt units or a way to remove the units from their discard pile).

One of the issues with the LCG format, is that even now there is not really that big of a card pool. It would be nice at some point if some of these cards could be removed, but I dont feel that the card pool is currently large enough to allow any cards to cycle out yet.

Another quick of the LCG format is that the factions are not generally in balance. As each battle pack comes out, the power level of the factions always shifts, hopefully in this next cycle things will shift a little bit chaos' way! (They need some useful 2 cost units and support cards so badly!)

Disdain. Disdain would be good if it cost 1.

Right now the mono decks tend to be very similar one to the other. This is at least what is happenng in my game group. After 20-30 games we get to a point where there are few little variations of a main DE deck.

Bi-faction decks, if viable, would open a new chapter in deck building and make for a more varied game. But in order to make this format playable we would need strong bifaction cards like for example units that carry a loyalty of the other faction or strong bonuses that ecourage cooperation between facions.

msommi said:

Dual-affiliation standard bearers would be awesome, or buildings where two factions meet. Maybe even tactics to ignore penalty of playing foreign factions as long as you can afford their basic cost.

Wytefang said:

I've seen this comment before but don't think it holds water. Does every order deck make use of High Elf's Distain? I know I don't when I make an Order Deck. If its not a High Elf deck I'm looking at saving 4 resources a turn to maybe use it (baring high elf loyalty symbols in a non-high elf deck). This will be the same on the Destruction side as well. If Chaos gets a tactic canceler there is no guarantee the Dark Elves or Orcs will be able to make good use of it (as an example).

Tactic-cancelers are nice but I don't think there absence is felt that bad, at least in my games.

All the best,

Wraith428