So:

2H Astartes Deathwatch Relic Blade = 2d10+7 pen 9 super power field
1H Mastercrafted Asartes Power Fist = 2d10+2+SB extra pen 9 power field, unweildy

2H Astartes Deathwatch Relic Blade: 50 req, hero
1H Mastercrafted Asartes Power Fist: 60 req, distinguished?

At 5 strength bonus the damages are the same. Power fist is unweildy but 1H, and the Relic blade is harder to purchase (slightly cheaper) and has a strong power field capable of destroying other power fields.

Seem wrong to anyone else? I am assuming that the Relic Blade is already best/master quality. If it isn't then the damage could be 2 higher at 100 req, but the power fist can be higher damage with more SB still at 60 req.

Suijin said:

I'm a little confused by your question- are you of the opinion the power fist or the sword is overpriced?

I don't think the blade is master crafted, it doesn't mention that anywhere in its description and they don't indicate you get the +10% to hit that you gain with master crafted melee weapons. Both weapons are doing the same damage in the scenario you provide.

You're not going to see the relic blade until you're nearing the end of your campaign anyhow (probably, anyhow), so when I look at those profiles and see a 10 point difference (a novice secondary objective), I don't see it as a huge deal. The relic blade has an amazing hand to hand ability of breaking the crap out of the opponent's weapons (or arms), but the power fist lets the wielder dual wield close combat weapons which is also pretty awesome. It also has the +10% to hit, which increass your probably DoS to hit which will increase damage (via the horde mag damage rule for melee attacks and the dos setting minimum damage on one of your dice)

What I do notice in more detail now is the lack of description on the increased renown requirement- is the renown level listed addative or a minimum? I assume minimum as there is no + or x in front of the requirement.

All Relic Weapons are Master-Crafted unless otherwise specified. Says so in the intro of the Relic section. One possible fix might be to consider the damage not having been adjusted yet... (Errata; wink, wink).

Alex

I fail to see what exactly you're implying here as well. One weapon is a specific duelling weapon made for disarming and killing strong enemies with power weapons on their own, the other is an anti-tank/massive creature weapon. Both have their merits and flaws.

What's your point? Which one is supposed to be overpowered?

I guess I just expected the relic blade to be better considering it's 2H and hero renown, not the same or worse in damage compared to a 1H weapon.

Seems a lot of the weaponry for space marines doesn't really get that much better at higher levels, just better in certain situations. In that way I guess it fits in. I probably wouldn't waste my time trying to ever get one though.

The fact that you can't parry with the fist means that you need another melee weapon in the other hand to be effective anyway (assuming you're a melee character and have a higher WS than Agi. And if you're not a melee character, why use a relic blade?!), thus tying up both hands. Seeing as the power fist can't parry, the powerfield is a moot point (because you break foe's weapons when parrying, not when you are parried) and does nothing. Meanwhile the relic blade's super power field is very handy.

The relic blade is comfortably better than a mere power fist. And is about 57.8 times cooler. It also doesn't stop you using the hand for anything else, which the powerfist does. Whereas the sword 'costs' you two hands when in use, the fist 'costs' you 1 hand all the time!

Suijin said:

Don't overlook the super power field on the relic blade:

- If it parries a weapon that can normally be destroyed by a power field, that weapon is automatically destroyed.

- If it parries a non-relic weapon that is normally immune to power fields, it still has a 25% chance to break it.

So it will be disarming a lot of enemies.

Sure but I can see where Suijin is coming from.

Melee-oriented characters will probably lean towards two-weapon combat at high ranks. Especially after the errata adds TWW to the general advances. So if you add a two-handed weapon it will need considerable oomph.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Helps if I could read, thanks for the pointer

Siranui said:

Well, the power field is what gives it a profile of 2D10 Pen 9, though I do agree 100 times over about the 'super power field.'

ak-73 said:

True enough, but you do only get that one extra attack from your off hand, right, in addition to having a -10 penalty fo hit (which counteracts the +10 to master craft)? So it's cool, but it's not overwhelmingly cool. The real ferocity I've seen comes from swift/lightning attack with the primary weapon, though as I'm learning on this board my munchkin players aren't nearly as munchkin as I once thought

To me, the super power field is super handy- limbs and swords will be destroyed left and right at that point, most people will be skewered without much of a fight. When comparing them at the stage of heroic renown and a cost difference of only 10, I don't see a huge issue.

Though the point I do agree with is that most two handed weapons don't trump the power fist. They're good versus other single handed weapons with their extra D10, but the fact that you can get the power fist AND another close combat weapon is having your cake and eating it too. But that said, since ambidexterity comes free, a player would only need the TWW talent in order to be able to pick either style of combat, whichever suited the mission and task at hand.

The schtick with the relic blade I'd say is the awesome power field, and the fact that you can parry with it (it's not even unbalanced!). And more often than not, a character will not have a SB higher than 5 (as most tend to put those advancement into WS and other stats, instead of strength), so the power fist won't get as much out of the SB compared to the bonus damage the relic blade get.

But personally I'm newly in love with the thunder hammer. Stun someone (and more often than not, knock someone prone) for one round every round, anyone? Plus I like imagining the whole KRABOOOOOM! thing it does.

One thing the Relic Blade should really have is Sanctifed(holy) quality seams unfair that only the Black Templars get the only thing that is should at lest be one weapon everyone can use if they know deamons are about

Mattman375 said:

Let's wait until RoB is out before we go and try to fix that. RoB is sure include more equipment, I think.

Alex

Well I hope it does

As I posted months ago, me and my group modified some of the properties of some weapons to fit in line with TT anf fluffs.

Power Fist is unbalanced instead of unwieldy. In TT and fluffs there are poeple like Pedro Kantor and Maernus Clagar that use powerfists as main weapon and while it's true in TT there are no rules for parry, it whould be ridicolous to think they don't know how to do it. The powerfist has the same profile it had in DH, and while it might make sense to make a limit to it in DH due acolytes been simple humans, Astartes surelly benefit from they huge strenght, mass and they powerarmor. It's not like they lack the necessary strenght to roll a sedan, why should it be impossible for them to parry with something as huge as a human shield ???? Now THAT is ridiculous.

The Relic Blade can be used 1handed as unbalanced weapon. Same reasoning of the powerfist for the weight of the weapon plus in TT a relic blade, while stated they are 2 handed weapons, they can be equipped on a captain along a thundershield. Therefore they can be used 1handed as well. Compared to thunderhammer that can be used 1handed, it only make sense to be used 1handed as well since it's a way more balanced weapon.

I am personally happy with power fists being unable to parry. It just means that you have to dodge instead. Anyone wanting a rule fix on them could perhaps instead consider making the powerfield of such weapons offensive in nature; delivering a 75% chance of breaking any weapon that parries it.

The relic blade also has the massive advantage of working well with counterattack.

Regarding Thunderhammers: I notice that they appear to be one handed these days! Anyone consider stepping them down to unwieldy if used in tow hands?

ak-73 said:

Bring on my sanctified thunder hammer!

Siranui said:

I assume you mean Unbalanced. But yes, I wouldn't have a problem with that if used with two hands. I assume most will pair it with another weapon that actually can parry. A storm shield or maybe a balanced power sword, or something. But sure, It'd be cool to use it two-handed, I'll give you that.

Plus: I'm not keen on mere power-armoured Asartes carrying them one-handed...

Siranui said:

Why not? They've done that for a while in TT. They're not THAT big. Just big enough to warrant the unwieldy trait.

Because I'm from the era that views them as terminator weapons, and every figure that I've seen carrying one in one hand is doing that: Carrying it, or leaning on it.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with that. For me, Thunderhammers have always been used 1 handed when in Terminator Armour only. Any non-Terminator wielders have always used it two handed.