I was play testing a scenario using the henchmen rules when this occurred. I'm having difficulty thinking about how to explain it to my players.

A hunter declares an attack at goblin henchmen (using three goblin henchmen with total toughness equally nine, 3x3=9 wounds) using accurate shot at medium range. With an agility of 5, plus training & specialization (amount to 3 characteristic dice, 2 conservative dice, one expertise die for training in weapon skill, and one fortune for specialization in crossbow including two additional fortune dice for taking two stress under the accurate shot care) vs. 2 challenge dice for medium range and two misfortune dice out of the monster pool), the hunter hits the target for +2 damage, including 2 extra damage per stress suffered which amounts to a whopping 15 points of damage. This exceeds the henchmen toughness of 9, killing the henchmen.

Explained as follows:

"Your years of training and experience assist you in awaiting the best possible time to pull the trigger. Wait...wait...now! You release your bolt exactly at the moment three goblin are running single file and pierce you combatants directly through the head pinning them to a nearby tree"

The best I can do.

A: Am I running this correctly?

B: If this occurs multiple times which I'm guessing it will what are other ways to explain this incredible use of one bolt. It seems easier to do with swords as you can hack and slash multiple opponents.

The arrow hits the lead gobbo directly, killing him instantly. The other two look at you, then take a quick glance at each other, then leg it as fast as they can.

Don't forget that a single action is *not* necessarily a single swing of a sword or missile. It is a single "series" of attacks in a short space of combat time, including feints and positioning, minor parries and blocks, etc. So, you actually could also describe it as three separate arrows quickly fired and unerringly striking all 3 unprotected goblins (who ran straight into the arrows even). Or, one or two arrows which incapacitated all 3, or the loss of one goblin caused the other two to trip and knock themselves out, etc. You could certainly use monkeylite's suggestion too, as 0 wounds really just means "combat ineffective" not necessarily actually killed.

dvang said:

This is the answer. Considering you can fire a black powder weapon every turn, it would indicate to me that a single turn accounts for approximately 30 seconds or so of combat... that would be enough for a trained weapon user to fire twice with a black powder armament.

I think the trick is not to put so much into it in terms of making it seem realistic. With melee it's a lot easier to explain of course. An axe swing could easily take out three minions.

It's fine being able to shoot a blackpowder weapon twice in a round to explain. But if your player kills 4+ henchmen then it's just a bit silly.

The archer in my group can often do 16+ points of damage. This means he'll kill quite a lot henchmen with a toughness of 3. If I were to come up with an incredible explanation everytime it would be more silly than not explaining it at all.

But the one explanation that seems most reasonable to me is killing a henchman or two and the rest fleeing. That works every time and doesn't make the game into a mickey mouse show of wondrous happenings

Fleeing works as well, but even if you deal as much as 20 points of damage with a shot, you're not likely going to kill more than 3-4 henchmen unless they're ridiculously weak. Even using the lowest ROF weaponry, the situation could easily be one in which the first shot manages to blast straight through the first henchman and into the shoulder of the second, the second shot blasting through the face of the third, and the distraction of his friend being blown away next to him opening him up to a stray blow from any nearby combat taking place.

This isn't to say that you should never explain it as opponents fleeing, but in the case of enemies like Nurgling or Skeleton henchmen, it's more likely that you have to explain them being destroyed in some way.

I'd think either explanation is fully entertainable, especially with an archer as they're able to fire much more frequently than twice in a 30 second period. Depending on who your group is fighting and the situation, you can use a combination of explanations to calm even the most skeptical player.

Yeah you're right darret. It's all about mixing it up. Using whatever explanation seems reasonable for each specific situation

I think if your players can kill 3 henchmen in one shot then stop using henchmen of that type, they are no threat to the party.

I do think that a action is considered at least 10 seconds that gives plenty of time to shot a few goblins in the head. Only use henchmen if you want loads in a big battle otherwise they are to easily killed.

badgertheking said:

I wouldn't say they pose no threat; if you place two henchman groups of 4 creatures each, then it's going to take perhaps 4 actions for the adventurers to kill them. They weren't a threat directly, but now the Black Orc has closed and is at full wounds, cleaving the Ratcatcher in twain.

The other purpose they serve is they make the group feel more like heroes... every once in a while they want to mow through hordes of lesser henchmen and bring the fight to the big bad on his throne. There's something visceral and exciting about it, rather than battling a few small groups of standard NPCs.

badgertheking said:

It's not just about threat. It's about the experience. A very cinematic fight where players rip through 20+ henchmen to get to the leader can be quite satisfying, although each individual henchman group doesn't pose a threat.

Have you read Gotrek and Felix? Sometimes players just like to be that kind of heroes, facing a huge number of nameless foes and ripping them apart until they are fighting in a pile of green flesh and gore.

It's all about the experience

That's why I changed my initial thought on henchmen... I didn't like them when we started out because I found them pointless. But from a purely cinematic and heroic story point of view they certainly have their place in the GMs arsenal of dramatic tools.

This is all very helpful. Thanks for the debate.

While I haven't played yet. That's due for superbowl weekend. I ran through this scenario now a dozen times. I've stuck with the three henchmen per unit because that was the suggestion in the ToA. I've even tried it with multiple single opponents and at that point the characters were overwhelmed. What I've reached now is several groups of henchmen with a big boss at the end and the characters can rip through the henchmen pretty quickly. However, when the bad guys hit...ouch! If the boss (in this case a single ork) gets to them then it's (almost) over Johnny.

I want an encounter that is heroic, but brings the party to the brink of disaster. Ultimately, what I want to do is to get people thinking is geez, this isn't a D&D greenskin.

I'll make sure I let folks know how it turns out.

Furlong Doug said:

Your situation sounds like an encounter I threw at the group in one of our first adventures, so if you don't mind a bit of a suggestion; I had groups of henchman Goblins that the players cleaved through, guarding an Orc boss. In my game, the Goblins began turning to run at a point on the tracker, when I had the Orc reveal himself at the back of the room, marching in and grabbing the foremost fleeing goblin, crushing his skull with one hand and hurling the body to the floor. This caused the remaining goblins to renew their attacks on the group, and I began using Aggression dice at this point to simulate their fanatical frenzy. It also gave the group a rally step, and a second after the Orc shouldered his way to the front and let out a vicious roar, at which point the remaining Goblins (There were only 3... dumb Trollslayer!) ran into the back tunnels.

That could easily be an explanation for "surplus" goblin deaths while also playing up the imposing nature of the foe they were going to face... any fleeing Goblins would almost certainly be cut down by the Orc, sickened by their lack of will to fight.

Here's question that came up in another post?

How do you handle soak with henchmen? For example, in a goblin henchmen x3? What's the soak? Is it 3? Couldn't find reference in the TOA.

It's not just about threat. It's about the experience. A very cinematic fight where players rip through 20+ henchmen to get to the leader can be quite satisfying, although each individual henchman group doesn't pose a threat.

Thats why I said henchmen are good for big battles, they can be very satisfying..

Have you read Gotrek and Felix? Sometimes players just like to be that kind of heroes, facing a huge number of nameless foes and ripping them apart until they are fighting in a pile of green flesh and gore.

its on my bedside table haha

Furlong Doug said:

If the Stat line of Goblin is : 3(4), 3(1), 4(0) x y z

you have 3 Goblin Henchmen as a group. It has 9 Wounds total (3x3, To x Gobz), Soak 1, total Damage Reduction of 4. No Defense.

Your player hits the group for 9 Damage (Sword + St 4) as exemple : the Group Damage Reduction is 3+1=4 (To + Armor), they take 5 Wounds. The 1st Goblin dies, the second one is wounded, 3rd is fine.

Hench G1 : 3 / 3 / 3 -> 0 / 1 / 3

You can find explaination of monster entries & stat lines p. 46 of ToA. It states that the values in () are the Weapon Damage, Armor Soak, etc. (and send you to the Equipment section of the Core book), for "default" creature and you could configure them yourself.

As the player knows his character stats, the check's difficulty, the rules of his action cards and the defense stats and actions of the opponents, why don't you try to let the player describe his character's result considering the roll he made ?

I tried it once : the "roller" describe the whole result, including the opponent when there is any. So I (GM) describe the active NPC's result and the PCs' reactions to these actions while they (players) describe their active PC's result and the NPCs' reactions.

It is amazingly fun with experienced players as it is with beginner roleplayer. Now be a player is not only a QuickTimeEvent role during encounter phases.

THIS IS SOMETHING ONLY WARHAMMER 3 CAN AFFORD : IT GIVES US AN OPPORTUNITY TO CONSIDER AN OTHER WAY TO ROLEPLAY.