OKay. about to run my first DW tonight and just noticed DMG procedure wasnt making sense to me.

What does RoF have to do with damage?

does a bolter do 2d10+5 for each shot? why i am asking is the bolter drill talent allows RoF to be increased by one so I wanted to know how it affected the damage.

also can Bolter Drill make a Stalker Bolter fire twice?

thanks

chrismata said:

RoF, if you fire with semi-auto/full-auto, is the max number of shots you can fire with each of those types of attack (single attack/semi-auto/full-auto).

Yes, you roll damage separately for each shot. This means that armour and toughness bonus apply to each shot. Also note, however, that the "Tearing" quality for bolters allows you to roll 3d10 and pick the two highest rolls.

Bolter Drill would allow you to fire any/all bolt weapons with +1 RoF to their normal RoF for that fire mode when you use semi-auto and full-auto. If you can't fire on those fire modes, you don't get the +1 RoF.

All of those are shown by a quick reading of the rules. No offence intended, but have you read the book all the way through? All of those questions are covered pretty conclusively.

MILLANDSON said:

So to reinforce, no, the stalker won't get to add the +1 to rate of fire as it's firing single shots.

MILLANDSON said:

In my experience, it may take more than one reading of, and more than a quick read, of the rules to get them down. Take your time, read the WHOLE section, as some of the combat rules (at least to me) take some getting used to. I'd also suggest printing out or copying the reference table that describes a summary of combat actions, how long they take, and what sub-type they are as it will help you and your players keep things flowing faster.

Good luck Chrismata

Thanks alot for both replies. I have been reading the rules for a while some of combat just wasnt sticking. I mainly have ran World of Darkness stuff and some d20 so d100 was a switch for me.

It just seemed like bolters could do a hell of a lot of damage getting multiple rolls for damage on full auto. So it seemed like I was understanding it wrong and I just needed clarification.

I also forgot to have the marines use their toughness bonus to reduce damage all night. No one had played DW before and I had ran DH only once over a year ago so it took us an hour or three to get up to speed. We had a real good time so the rules points were moot mostly. 4 marines faced 6 Genestealers and almost bought it.

I may get called an idiot for it again but you can use a bolt pistol in melee right? since its a pistol. Do you use WS or BS to test in melee with it? also is it used Single fire or can it be semi autoed?

Other marine weapons, plasma pistols and melta guns dont seem to be as good stats wise as bolters either. I really like bolters and heavy bolters so it doesnt bother me but we discovered non bolter armed marines didnt seem to pack the punch as the bolter marines. Especially armed with the alternate ammunition. We didnt use alot of rules tonight for speeds sake and maybe other weapons shine when crits are added in or you need a high penetration weapon.

Thanks again for the feedback though.

Playing with marines is awesome.

Charmander said:

javascript:void(0);/*1294725332515*/ A few pics of our game tonight.

I suck at board code. sorry.

chrismata said:

And a lot of us had our marines almost die versus the genestealers in FS or TEP and that was with the toughness damage reduction. One thing to point out- remember marines get to double their toughness bonus for terms of damage reduction. Read the section on unnatural characteristics- it's another tricky one.

The d100 combat rules do take some getting used to when you come from other systems. Read it as many times as it takes, once you get it the system will make a ton of sense, and combat will be relatively quick (except for all the hits from the heavy bolter).

Page 140 details pistols in melee: "Pistol weapons are fired one-handed and can be used in melee to make a Standard Attack while engaged in melee." Though that does bring up something up that's always bugged me, and that is that it indicates under the pistol description that you can take one shot, but under the two weapon fighting section on page 246 that you can fire each pistol (if armed with two) on separate modes (so one shot with one and a short burst with another). I've always played that if using a single pistol you can attack as if they were ranges (so full auto if possible), and the second pistol gave you the 'bonus attack' that it does for melee (so full auto on one, one shot with the other), keeping in mind you get no to-hit bonuses in hand to hand, but I don't know if that is correct.

Search the forums for plasma or melta, or 'bringing weapons in line with TT' (or something similar from AK), and you can see much discussion around this. RAW has the meltas and plasmas being very very very niche, which I don't agree with myself. Some people have nerfed the bolt weapons to bring them down to the level of plasmas and meltas, but other go the other way- I personally add +1d10 to the damage of meltas and plasmas, reduce the HB's rate of fire to 8, and tweaking the + to damage.

okay.

wouldnt that make a bolt pistol more effective damage wise in CC then? If fired on semi auto and you hit 3 times it would do way more damage than a power sword for instance.

It makes sense fluff wise and I guess. two guys dueling with swords and guns for example, the guns do more damage and the sword allows for parrying.

chrismata said:

I sent a note to FFG but they've not replied to me yet- checked the forums and there seemed to be a mixed consensus.

Yes, pistols would be super awesome in close combat. However in theory you'd not get any benefits for attacking in close combat, so you're less likely to get a super high number of DoSs to hit. Also, autofire (aside from dual wielding and dual shot) is the only way a gun can fire more than one time, whereas there is swift attack/lightning attack abilities you get the chance to attack 2/3 times with your primary weapon. Don't underestimate strength bonus, you're going to be adding somewhere between 8 and 10 to the damage which is essentially the equivalent of 2 dice worth of damage. So that marine with strength 50ish with a power fist will be doing 15 damage plus 2d10, 2-3 times a round, which is pretty brutal.

I wouldn't allow someone to attack with swift attack (a full round action) then fire full auto with a pistol (another full round action) however.

Honestly the more I read and re-read that secion I'm be inclined to say that when in ranged combat you can fire both pistols on separate mode, and when in hand to hand you can make a standard attack in hand to hand, but again that interpretation is subject to me being illiterate

chrismata said:

It may seem that way at first. But given Armor and Toughness offset the damage taken for every hit that they apply to, it might not net a significant amount of damage.

chrismata said:

A pistol used in Melee still uses BS. Firing Semi-Auto or Full-Auto is a full round action, so you can do it but not much else. You may be selling yourself short if you've gone and learned the Swift / Lightning Attack talents and also picked up the Two Weapon Wielder (Ballistic and/or Melee) talents. You can squeeze out up to 4 attacks when armed with two Melee weapons or a Melee weapon and a Pistol. Of course, then you'll just be firing the pistol once.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

FWIW, Ross says the following:

When using a pistol in melee combat, a standard attack is one shot.

I would read that as pistols being only ever able to be fired once in close combat, as the description of pistols indicates in the start of the weapon descriptions. But yes, if armed with 2 melee weapons or a melee weapon and a pistol nets you up to 4 attacks.

Charmander said:

Well, yes, a Standard Attack would be one shot, fired in single-fire mode. If you are in Melee using only a Pistol and it has a FA or SA value; for instance, an Autopistol with a RoF S/-/6, you should still be able to use a full-round action to FA your opponent(s). You just wouldn't get the +30 for firing Point-Blank, or any "sight" benefits. Otherwise, if using the full suite of talents and attacks, yeah a single-shot from the pistol should be the limit. It really depends somewhat on the circumstances they finds themselves in.

-=Brother Praetus=-

The pistol description on page 140 says "Pistol weapons are fired one-handed and can be used to make a Standard Attack while engaged in melee." That standard attack is considered to be a single shot. It doesn't say anywhere that you can make a full round attack action with them, and thus can't fire on full or semi-automatic.

This confused me at first as well, but that's why I asked them the question.

EDIT: Meaning it doesn't say you can make a full round action with pistols in melee, not meaning to say you can't fire in full auto for ranged combat.

Charmander said:

Which would make the bolt pistol/chainsword combo useless. Therefore use the bolt-pistol similar to a melee weapon in that regard. You have to wonder why they haven't expressed it right in their 3rd core rulebook though. Too tough time contraints on getting the thing out in time, I guess.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I don't see it as useless, just put it in your off hand and fire it once. To me, allowing essentially a 5th attack in hand to hand because you have an automatic weapon is a bit much, but then again this is from the guy that grimaces with multiple attacks

It seems to be expressed right in DW if you ignore the way it was written in DH (where it as far as I read, including the eratta, is very cloudy on the issue).

Charmander said:

So you can do a multiple attack action with a bolt pistol?

Alex

ak-73 said:

I think the key to the pistol description on 140 is to show that you can't fire on automatic with a pistol in melee combat. Normally with a melee weapon, you can only make a standard attack without a talent as well, right? I don't have my DW book handy right now so I can't double check the description there, but from DH Eratta: "If you have Lightning Attack and Two Weapon Wielder (Ballistic and Melee), and are armed with a pistol and a melee weapon, you can, as a Full Action, make a single attack with the pistol and three attacks with the melee weapon."

That single attack would be one round in this case, not 2 in the case of a bolt pistol, or 6 in the case of an autopistol.

Charmander said:

Indeed, normally with a melee weapon you are limited to a single attack; a Standard Action, unless you have a talent that allows you to attack more than once. However, with a ranged weapon of any sort you do not require a talent to utilize its different firing modes. A character solely armed with a Pistol in melee is also limited to what sort of defensive reaction they may use as I don't see parrying with a Pistol as exactly viable.

While I agree that when attacking in melee with a melee weapon and a pistol, the pistol should only be allowed to be fired in single shot mode, I do not agree that an attacker with only a pistol is also so limited. The reason being is also explained in part of the Two-Weapon Fighting rules:

• When firing a ranged weapon with each hand, the character may fire each weapon on a different mode, for example, one on full automatic and one on semi-automatic. When firing a full automatic weapon in each hand, the character may only lay down one area of suppressive fire.

So, why should the above character get to combine what is in effect two Full Actions; attacking with two weapons and firing FA or SA with each ranged weapon... I'm sorry, yes, in Deathwatch it says firing a Pistol in Melee is limited to a Standard Attack, but I think I will stick with allowing Pistols to be fired on FA or SA in melee with the additional caveat of only when the character is solely wielding pistols; I think more in line with the way they work in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader , and the change with Deathwatch was rather unnecessary.

• Dark Heresy page 127 - Pistol weapons are fired one-handed and can be used in close combat. However, when a pistol is used in close combat, the firer gains no bonuses or penalties to hit for range or targeting equipment.
• Dark Heresy Errata page 7 - The entry for Class on page 127 should include an addition under the Pistols section: "Pistols with the Scatter quality fired in melee are considered to be firing at Point-Blank range. However, they do not gain the +30 BS bonus for being in Point-Blank range."
• Rogue Trader page 114 - Pistol weapons are fired one handed and can be used in close combat. However, when a pistol is used in close combat, the firer gains no bonuses or penalties to hit for range or targeting equipment. Pistols with the Scatter quality fired in melee are considered to be firing at Point-Blank range. However, the do not gain a +30% bonus for being at Point-Blank range.

Recoil and swinging a blade don't mix to well, but recoil and recoil is all sorts of John Woo action. Or, in the case of my Adept , FA or SA from a pistol in melee is more often "panic fire" then anything else. And it's the only thing that tends to save him when he has a Genestealer trying to nom his face off.

Look, I'm not saying that it doesn't say what it says in the rules. I am saying I do not agree with that particular rule. Sure, this is Rules Questions , and not House Rules , but I'm just sticking to an older version and answer which I feel makes more sense to me.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Ross said, in his answer to me:
"The description on page 246 is for ranged combat."

Brother Praetus said:

Fair enough, though I find the game to not be especially John-Woo-ish in general and don't typically go for that, so I find the rule just fine. Again, this is all coming from a guy that isn't a huge fan of the whole multi-attack/autofire rules to start with; I look at autofire in DH and see it as out of control in hand to hand though; why would anyone start with a sword when you could buy an autopistol and have a chance to do even more in hand to hand? The parry from a balanced weapon? Why not spend some xp on dodge which you'd want anyhow? But again, as you say, this was a rules questions and not house rules, so I'll digress as well.

P.S. Sorry your GM threw your adept up against genestealers, sounds uncomfortable

Charmander said:

Actually, for being both the lightest armed and armored character, with both the least number of Wounds (13) and Fate Points (2) I come out of the scary monster fights like this better than my compatriots. The first time we encountered 'Stealers was on a Hulk. Back then my "heavy weapon" was a Thollos Mk IV Autopistol loaded with Manstopper rounds. I never even got touched. A bit later on the Hulk is when we crossed paths with a Lictor which successfully began noshing on my face, it was like I had a squad on my face or something.

Currently we're dealing with both a full blown Genestealer Cult and planetary secession all at the same time with evidence supporting a Tyranid splinter fleet may be just entering the system. None of our meager allies have been able to coordinate their efforts, we have very limited supplies, and every time we come up with a plan to discredit the rebellious planetary governor and get what true loyalists on our side, we get preemptively trumped. While I enjoy the game in general and the group in particular, I don't think the GM is aware that it's not supposed to be us versus him. He doesn't "win" if he kills our PCs. He "wins" if we all have fun. Still, minor gripes aside, his plots and stories are interesting.

Oh, and for the record, my Adept has been:

• shot in the head by a Heavy Bolter for critical damage and lived: X Crit 3.
• noshed on in the face by a Lictor and lived: R Crit 2.
• shot in the torso by a plasma pistol on maximal: E Crit 9 - 1st burned fate point
• had his right leg violent sundered by a bolt round: X Crit 7 - 2nd burned fate point

And there lies my characters extensive experiences with Critical damage in an almost 2 year campaign. I've managed to be fairly lucky for it. And I really like my new leg.

-=Brother Praetus=-