I would probably be better for me to describe to you how a specific encounter will go and then go from there. The grande finale stage will be a beastmen camp where characters will battle for the lives of remaining kindapped victims and escape before the majority of the herd returns. I'm figuring on having five players at this session and so far I believe a Trollslayer, Smuggler, Initiate and Road Warden are definite, so a healthy mix of fighter types with a healer.

I was thinking of a Shaman along with some henchmen and maybe a few ungors as a balanced encounter, but have yet to play around with the balancing act that FFG seems to leave up to us. I'd first like to ask what you think? This will establish a minor villain at the end of the encounter in the form of either a Minotaur, or Wargor. The present company in the camp should be a challenge as it'll be the climax to the adventure. How many henchmen would you use? One group of five?

Now, along with this question I'd like to know how you use the henchmen "Mob". It seems that with five, say, ungors that they will act in unison and only one attack action will be made by the group, is this correct? If I'm right, do you simply keep them all engaged with one player, or do they split up and you simply "Describe" that one of the henchmen attacks as a general statement?? I hope this isn't too confusing. Essentially I'm trying to get my head around the idea of henchmen in that they act in unison with only one attack per turn? I would really appreciate any sort of descriptive you can give me to help envision this.

Thanks!

wOOkie

Henchmen are a bit tricky, and as such I try to avoid them as much as possible unless they are very weak enemies, like rats or snotlings.

In general, a single henchmen group should have a number of members at least equal to the number of players. This operates as a single creature, with a single action per round and a single health pool. It's attacks are beefier, but it loses effectiveness prety easily as its members die (ie as it takes wounds).

Depending on advances for the smuggler, and the order of the initiate, that could be a relatively 'heavy' combat group. For example, a Sigmarite Initiate could easily take more martial focused blessings and action cards, plus heavier armor. Certainly the Slayer and the Roadwarden are pretty handy combat PCs.

First thing to keep in mind for balancing an encounter is that it is easiest to run them in "waves". So, the first wave, to test and weaken the PCs, is a couple groups of Ungor henchmen, for example. Depending on how big you envision the beastmen encampment/forces, you could do something like 3-4 groups of Ungor henchmen (comprised of 5-6 Ungors each). Give them a few rounds of combat with those, and depending on how quickly/easily they deal with them will allow you to adjust the second wave.

Wave 2: In general, the second wave should be slightly more difficult. So, I'd add at least a single "sub-boss"/lieutenant into this wave. Probably a Gor. If the group had an easy time with the first wave, replace the henchmen groups with solo NPC Ungor and maybe one as another Gor instead. If the first wave was too tough (unlikely) then reduce the number of henchmen groups accompanying the lieutenant, or just make the second wave two Gor lieutenants (etc.)

Wave 3: The "Boss" and his bodyguards. Should be slightly more difficult than wave 2. Here they face the Shaman himself directly (or a Wargor surrogate as the Shaman flees, etc), plus one or two single Gors or Ungors.

Breaking the modifications/adjustments down, in general ...

To increase difficulty:
- replace henchmen groups with a single monster (or two)
- replace single monsters with a slightly stronger monster
- add another single monster, or henchmen group
- add additional A/C/E dice to the NPCs' pools

To reduce difficulty:
- Remove a henchmen group or single NPC
- Replace single monsters with a slightly weaker version (or possibly two significantly weaker)
- Replace a single monster with a henchmen group
- restrict A/C/E dice

Also, in addition to these ... timing can increase or decrease difficulty. If the group is having a (relatively) easy time, bring in the next wave quickly before they finish off the current wave. If the group is having a more difficult time, delay the next wave to allow the group to finish off the current one and recover a moment.

Re: handling henchmen groups -

They for all intents and purposes are a single NPC, so they get one action and thus can only go after/attack a single PC. Really... just think of a henchmen "group" as a single NPC. The concept is, that the NPCs are working as a team and "mobbing" a single enemy. The sheer number of attacks represents the greater danger (more attack dice) of causing damage and getting a hit. Remember that attacks in WFRP are not a single swing, they are the results of a minute or two of combat with multiple strikes.

Still, as I said, I personally avoid henchmen unless I'm dealing with significant "swarm" enemies, like rats, snotlings, bats, etc. For beastmen, I consider even single Ungors fairly dangerous (unless we're talking Rank 3+ PCs), so I would in your situation (and this is just me) probably throw something like 4-5 single Ungor NPCs as the first wave. Wave 2 as a Gor+ X Ungors (X depending on how easy/tough the previous wave was. Probably base 5 +/- ). Wave 3 as Shaman/Wargor+Gor+Gor (add some Ungors if you need to beef up the wave)

I hope this helps a little.

Good explanation by dvang, so I won't comment on how hencmen work.

I avoided henchmen too (and still do in this first campaign that has run for 25 or 26 sessions). But I have given it some more thought and hencmen are actually quite coon. 4 henchmen do work as a single creature, but you should still place four standups on the table to represent them (they also die off one by one, or more if enough damage is done with one attack). I actually intend to use a lot of henchmen in my next campaign and then individual creature more like bosses and mini bosses. It will give a different feel to combat where players are killing enemies left and right like Gotrek and Felix, but still face tough enemies from time to time.

So Don't dismiss henchmen completely, they can have their purpose in many fights. Especially if you mix it up so players don't know exactly how strong the enemy is (henchmen or not?).

Dvang, thanks so much for the insight! I probably would have ignored them as well as the posts would reflect, but since you have helped this make more sense I think I'll at least toy with it to see how it works. I think the biggest question was running them in descriptive terms to the group. They'll be very worried when I place the ungor markers down, thinking that each is a normal NPC. The think with henchman, at least to me is to make the group think that they aren't some form of weaker NPC and I really like that idea!

D&D 4th is really sort of a joke with it's minions as it's so mechanical in how it works and how the PC's deal with it. WHF seems to have nailed it now that I think about it. The grande things I remember about my fondest AD&D 2nd days was the simple fact that you had the element of "Wonder and fear" to encounters. WH3 gives that back handily I'd say and I'll be curious to see how my newbs react to the various encounters.

Thanks again for the input! You can tell this game is loved by the thoughtful posts I've received to my various posts over the last several months of reading and scouring the rules!

Cheers!

wOOkie

Be careful with Beastmen, they are powerful melee combat opponents. Do NOT use a Minotaur as the boss, your group seems to be formed of "new" characters. A single Wargor could wipe them out quickly.

Henchmen act as one unit, one initiative, etc. They get Fortune bonus dice per creatures above 1 in the unit, which makes it dangerous with a 5 henchmen group (+4 fortune on the attack). They die quicker though, for Ungor henchmen, on a single attack you reduce the damage by the 4+1 (To + Soak), then each 4 damage after that kills one ungor henchman (To 4). The unit itself has 20 Wounds (5 ungors, To 4). On a 11 damage attack, 1 dies and the next one is wounded (5 soaked, 4+2 net wounds left).

As said above, a wave style encounter is one possibility, or an "approach, fight, flee/victory" 3 steps (3 acts style).

The 1st step would oppose the group with something like 3 henchmen groups (or 2 henchmen groups and 1 Gor, that is 2 Ungors henchmen per PC + 1 normal), 2nd act/wave the Boss + 2 Gors (tough, be careful), 3rd would depend on the outcome of 2nd act. If they kill the boss, you could have the Gors start fighting among themselves to become the new boss, etc., and the group get chased only by Ungors (it's presented that way in TGS). If they fail and need to flee, they get chased by a Gor and Ungor henchmen group

There is no right or wrong, of course, so my suggestion of waves is only one way to run the combat, as Cwell mentioned. You could certainly use his suggestion of an "approach, fight, flee/victory" too. It depends partially on the story. Is this the final battle of the adventure? Is it just a stepping stone? How important is the beastman boss? Do you have plans for the Boss escaping?

For example, if the idea is to keep the Boss alive (if possible) as a recurring villain ... then Cwell's suggestion makes a great deal of sense. Some guards are the first wave, fighting the Boss and lieutenants is the second wave, and the third is less combat, but perhaps a running battle/chase scene as the Boss flees through the sewers/tunnels/forest/etc before finally getting away (or being caught if the PCs should get lucky).

However, should it be a pivitol battle, the standard 3-wave build-up leading to the final showdown with the Boss (win or lose) is probably more appropriate. It really comes down to how your story is to play out, and the feeling that you want to convey to the players. Heck, you might even take our suggestions and make some other alternative 3-act/wave combat arrangement. That's perfectly fine too, as long as it fits how you want your story to play out.

I like the idea of keeping multiple models/standups for the henchmen ... but you just need to make sure to recall/remember that they are henchmen and operate together (including moving). The advantage of using henchmen, is that the PCs will be killing "individuals" quite a bit. So, if you want to convey to the PCs a sense of wading through enemies, mowing down several with a single swing of the sword, henchmen are what you want to use and what they are good for. Very cinematic certainly, and there is a place and time for them. For me, though, especially for foes like beastmen, I consider the majority of those to each individual be a significant threat, even Ungors. Until the PCs become fairly powerful, foes like beastmen will remain non-henchmen unless I'm running a large-scale battle or something.

I use a morale tracker for 90% of the fights and the average NPC will flee if too many of his friends die. I don't like that fight to the end pulp novel stuff... sometimes when they meet some fanatics it makes an impression when they have a high discipline and don't flee. But even the boss can flee in my game if the dice decides it.

Jeesh guys, Again. the input from this forum is amazing and thank you for the thoughtful input! I love the "waves" idea and also think you're right in that the Gors will be too much, so more ungors are definitely in store.

The adventure is simple and it'll be their introduction to the new system. The idea is simple, they're in a tavern on a rowdy night and in the middle of a high stakes dart match the door blows open to a horrible storm and a child beaten and obviously many days without food. The rowdy patrons will rough the kid up for ruining the "Match winning round" and throw him out back into the rain. The party will go to the child to find he's escaped from a beastmen camp where the remainder of his family is awaiting being eaten. Essentially a caravan overtaken on a road between here and there. The final encounter will be rescuing the surviving members and escaping before the majority of the herd returns.

The Wargor will be the main baddie, but not something they'll fight as he'll give chase and be an antagonist for a later adventure, or I might lead it into TGS. So, I thought I'd maybe throw a shaman with some ungor and if it's too easy mabe bring a wave in with one Gor. The idea is to get out after a quick fight and have a chase sequence through torrential rains in the forest.

I again thank all of you for ideas and suggestions! I can't wait to give this a run..........

TGS has a chapter built like that, without spoiling it too much -> Act 1 : getting into the marshes to the herdstone clearing, Act 2 : the herdstone clearing, Act 3 : the "exit" ...

A morale tracker for NPCs is an excellent suggestion, and one I have used on occasion myself. The new Monster Group cards in the creature Vault should help too.

If the Wargor is the main bad guy, and you don't plan for the PCs to fight it ... then make sure you have enough reasons to prevent/convince the PCs not to do so. Often in my experience the PCs, flush with victory, will be headstrong and try to take the fight to the boss and solve all their problems. Make sure you've got several options ahead of time on how to avoid this without seeming heavy-handed. This could be especially true with new players, who might not realize the power of a single Wargor.

I'm having similiar difficulties preparing our first game in a few weeks. We're experienced D&D'ers, but I'm excited about WHFB and want the group to enjoy it as well. This is the one area I have the least amount of confidence.

In a three player game, is there a ratio you would suggest? How many one skull & crossbone monsters can they handle, how many two, and so on. What is the best combination or a general rule of thumb.

For example, let's say I was looking for a single encounter, no waves, just a straight up battle between some underlings and their boss. Can we use greenskins this time as an example?

These are the "rules" I use for the morale tracker. It's more like rough guidelines, because I tailor morale trackers for almost every encounter. But it's the basic idea with some different variables, depending on the encounter. The basics of the way I do it is present in the ToA. The system also works best for smaller encounters (like what a party would meet) and not for large engagement warfare. For really big groups the system needs to be tweaked, so it takes more than one kill to move the tracker.

• GM NPC Morale: Use a progress tracker. First place a number of spaces equal to the average willpower of the NPCs. Then place the first event space. After that place a number of spaces equal to the highest aggression rating among the creatures present, with an event space for every 2 spaces. If the creature with the highest aggression rating dies the progress tracker is changed to reflect the new highest aggression rating. A token is moved along the progress tracker to represent NPC morale.
• The progress token is moved one space forward each time a NPC is killed (A henchmen group counts as one NPC).
• The progress token is moved forward one or more spaces if a player successfully uses an action card to intimidate the enemies.
• The progress token is moved one space forward on any perfect rolls. (a special house rule we have, 6 successes, 2 boons, 1 hammer is a perfect roll)
• IF the leader of the NPC group makes an average (2d) leadership(Fel) check he may move the token one step backwards. This costs his action for the round.
• When the progress token reaches an event space the NPCs have to make an average (2d) discipline(WP) check, based on the weakest creature still remaining. If the check succeeds the most heavily wounded of the weakest type of NPCs flee. If the check fails several wounded NPCs of the weakest type flee.
• When the progress token reaches the final space the strongest remaining NPC has to make a hard (3d) Leadership(Fel) each round or the NPCs will all rout.

Once you get used to plan the morale tracker for your encounters it's super smooth and takes no time. Even for sudden encounters you can quickly make a tracker. I keep it open so players can see it.

Furlong Doug said:

It's hard to say. The first thing to keep in mind is that the Skull threat ratings in the ToA/CG are not like the D&D encounter ratings. The threat rating has nothing (directly) to do with the players. The threat ratings are how dangerous, in general, a single NPC of that type is to other NPCs. The reason for that is fairly simple. The power of a PC, or group of PCs, varies widely based upon not only the career, but the skills, actions, and talents the PC has taken. So, a 1-skull threat NPC might be a challenge to a Scholar PC, but not to a Trollslayer, for example. The best suggestions that I can give are to look at a few sample encounters that FFG published, and tweak from there based on your group. Orcs are fairly tough. Goblins are good to use, since even if they outnumber the PCs, it isn't implausible for them to flee once a couple of them are cut down (ie, if it seems like the goblins might be too powerful for the group to handle, have them break and run when a PC kills one of them, etc)

sugarwookie said:

How about this? The fleeing child angers the beastmen and causes them to delay dinner time and hunt down the child. This splits the beastman group giving the PCs the chance to get in and rescue the others before the wargor and his mates get back. It also keeps the wargore out of the PCs way, preventing them from accidentally killing your arch villain and him from accidentally killing your PCs!

Of course, the other beastman group might track the child to the tavern and attack it (perhaps while the PCs are being led by the child back to the camp to rescue the others). Depending on what you need for your story, you could have the beastman sack the tavern or be fought off by the locals.

Furlong Doug said:

I worry about this too. I recommend playing a sample fight between first a single 'PC' you've made up and a goblin, then a beastman etc, just to give you some idea how things might go. Then try again with two or 3 PCs - say 2 combat PCs and 1 non-combat (unless you're sure you know what type of characters your players like to play), and run a combat with a larger group of monsters.

It won't be perfect: it's much harder to 'play' both sides than one, but it should give you some idea of what to expect.

Ok - spent all afternoon play testing combat and this is what I've learned (and BTW I'm 44, and my wife has officially written me off)

One single combat character (a dwarf watchman which allows weapon skill spec.)

vs.

One Ork is kick ass.

One Goblin is easy to kill

Goblin henchmen (x3) are slightly harder to kill that a single goblin (because of the die pool), and Ork henchmen (x3) as nasty as one single ork

I did it twice with similiar results and repeated the experiment with beastmen. Again, same results.

Another quick question -

I assigned one challenge die for engaged and close range.

What's the thought there?

Furlong Doug said:

I don't know. What exactly was the outcome. The orc killed the character most of the time? The goblins were easy. The beastmen were.

What was it you were trying to test and what precisely was your result?