A player of mine has decided to play an amber wizard, and while I have no objections, I've never played one myself or GM'd one, in either of the two editions...

So first up, he chose to make him very tough, to symbolize him having lived in the wilds for several years, so 5 toughness... I have no problem with that, but do wonder how you would rule what happend when he transforms into a Black Wolf.

I'm tempted to let him keep his 5 toughness, and make a general ruling that when transforming, physical stats can be up to one higher than the form dictates (if the char has higher stat of course), and make it show in the form. So for his wolf it would be somewhat bigger, and look battlehardened. Thus when he learns raven/crow form, it'll be with +1 toughness, but not the full 5 toughness.

How does that sound?

Also he decided not to have education, so for one I've thought about removing the "academic" part of App. Wizard career, and exchange it with "rural".

And also thought about how he learns new spells. Does he need to read them from a grimoire, or would it be acceptable for him to learn them from the nature of the amber wind? Of course paying the same amount for them...

He's by no means a powergamer, so I'm willing to go far to "model" the class to portraying a "wild man", in touch with nature. So completely exchanging education with nature lore, or resilience would seem fine to me.

The whole roleplaying aspect seems like it will out fine, he knows he'll feel awkward in bigger cities (said to him, that if it has a stone wall, then it's a city...), and will also slowly feel more and more like the beasts he "mimics", untill he's more beast than man (the last he saw of his master, was him transforming into a wolf for the last time, and go into the forest to live with the she-wolf he had fallen in love with), but that it takes time.

So he'll kinda be fighting against the urge in him to use the magic, and the fear of becomming more beast than man.

Funny, I've never seen amber wizards as much fun to play, but can see much potential in this.

It sounds interesting.

I think the animal forms are designed to be used as-is. I hadn't really understood why until you've made your post. A tough wolf makes sense, but not a super-tough bird. I know you're only suggesting limiting stat differences to +1 if higher than the animal, but that starts to get complicated to keep track of.

Not that you shouldn't do it, just that I don't think it was intended.

But in the wolf's case, it does make sense. Perhaps allow a fortune or expertise dice for every point a stat is over the animal's? So your Toughness 5 wizard could have one additional white/yellow dice when in wolf form, rather than a Toughness boost to 5?

Just a thought. Go with whatever works for you.

yes, I think Angelic has a good point there! I would also suggest a fortune die for every point the character has above... not the animal he transforms into, but the medium of his own race. like, your player's Amber Wizard would have 2 fortune die for each for he gets, since he is 2 above a regular human. that's just a thought, but would set a fixed number for every transformation (since it is based on his human form rather than the difference between his human form and every animal form he gets) and also would prevent he having more fortune dices to add to Toughness when in a crow form than when in a wolf form.

not that that is so bad. fortune dices should be something of a disposition to deal with the situations, the natural ability to put yourself in a better situation, or just plain luck. so a Wizard who is very high on Toughness could become a crow that knows how to deal with it's own body, resisting what it can but also using what fortune covers to resist, not what a characteristic die would cover.

1 fortune die of bonus would also mean less a difference than 1 characteristic die.

about the education, IMO it is easily handleble to imagine a Wizard that doesn't know how to read or write, specially an Amber Wizard. most of his spells he would learn from someone else. he would have to know how to speak Magick, because it is the language that deals with the Winds. and he would sure be an awkward one, even for the Amber Order.

I always imagined the spells woven by the Orders as Magickal formulas. they are more or less definite ways of dealing with the Chaos energies as personfied by the Winds. one must be sensitive to the Winds to deal with them, uing this sensibility (conscious or not) though focusing and also his feelings, movements, imagination. also, one has to use Magick. as a language, it is a translation of the way of the Winds. it is the special tool that allows a human to deal with the Winds. the language is an expression of the Winds themselves, but also concrete, and so someone can contact and wave the Winds through it.

so I would be very careful to let a PC learn new spells just by sensing the Winds. he would have to come up with a new formula to do that, since spells aren't just Wind-sensing. if a PC cannot read, he would have to have another way to comprehend how other Wizards do it.

but that could possibly be explained. also, a character that has a high sensitivuty and a high connection with the Wind he deals with should understand the formulas easier, like second nature. maybe the master of the character in question had some way of explaining the formulas, with drawings, for instance, and let some other spells to be deciphered in this fashion. so maybe for the PC in question to learn new spells would be kinda harder, not on terms of advancements, but on terms of roleplaying: he would have to understand what, in terms of spell-weaving and of Magick, the drawings of his late-as-a-human master mean. maybe he could have dreams with his master in the human and/or wolf form explaining things. some of this dreams would be reminiscence of thoughts and memories, some could be... something else. and maybe the PC has some friend inside the Amber College, like other student of his master who kept to a "more civlized" way and could help the character from time to time, if the character goes to the city where he resides - or, if looking for him, the other student is in need of something and offers help as payment for a favor.

anyway, I agree with you. LOTS of possibilities. :] it sure is nice to get out of the box...

Spivo said:

I think your plan could work. I'd probably encourage him to go with only 4 Toughness, however. To me, 2 Tou is average for a human of the Empire, 3 is average for an adventurer or someone used to travel on the road, 4 is a hardened individual, like a grizzled veteran soldier, and 5 is a veteran Dwarf soldier. To have his toughness at 5 isn't out of the question of course, but it would be exceptionally rare and the result of years and years of conditions beyond simply living in the wild. Your call of course, and it might just by my own interpretation getting in the way.

Spivo said:

Seems fine to me as far as Education and Academic go.

As far as learning new spells, learning from experimentation and through the winds of magic is dangerous, and can be seen as flirting with Chaos. Without instruction (especially as an Apprentice), I'd say he would be watched very closely and have a higher chance of corruption when learning spells in this way. I'd probably require the character to at least spend a bit of time learning from another Amber Wizard when he wants to acquire new spells, or have him make a resilience check (Maybe even have a suspicion tracker to represent the College/Witch Hunters keeping an eye on him) to represent the greater risk of corruption.

Spivo said:

I know that games are seen differently by each of us, so please take this only as a comment regarding my own viewpoint. Many cities have wooden palisades to protect them. In Warhammer especially, cities are generally muddy quagmires, a loose collection of buildings huddled together against the encroachment of the many enemies in the area. Heavy stone walls are reserved for large cities like Nuln or Altdorf, while backwater cities are more likely to have only wooden walls, but more than enough population to make an Amber Wizard nervous.

I recently played a Jade Wizard in a one-off game, and it was interesting. I do think that Jade Wizards are one of the least useful of the Wizards (which is partly why I played it), especially when in an area where there are no plants. It wasn't a lot of fun casting Magic Dart over and over while in some stone catacombs. I just mentioned this for you to make sure you plan enough scenes in which your player can shine in respect to his element.

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions

I like the "+1 fortune per stat above 3", that makes his 5 toughness usefull, but not to strong.

Regarding education, I really like him having to find another amber wizard in order to learn more spells. He's reluctant to even cast spells as it is (fear of becomming beast), and I will use the Winds of Magic adventure to introduce him to a new master, one who has learned how to toil the "beast within", who will either teach him education, or spells when he feels ready.

Finally I have a campaign in mind, that follows 2-3 main plots, each woven into the adventures published. So EfaE he won't be much out of his ellement, due to the mansion being in wilderness. In TGS there's a ton of scenes taking place in the wilds, and he'll be of amazing use in the beastman scenes. EoN he'll be like a fish in a desert... but that's still fun in it's own way... The Winds of Magic expansion will be rough as well, same with Signs of Faith. But one of the main plots mainly takes place in the wilds, so that makes up for it.

Btw, it's weird that priests get special skills for the different beliefs, while wizards don't get any. To me the wizard colleges are quite different.

But guess that shouldn't keep me from doing it.

Spivo said:

If it was me, I'd lean towards no bonuses at all for toughness - partly for simplicity and partly because with a very high toughness you could have a very tough bird, even if you are only using fortune dice. I can imagine a character in bird form fearing being captured because he knows he's weak in this form, but if he's got a huge toughness bonus, that will be a bit lost. But I don't think using fortune dice as a bonus are a bad thing. I might do it from time to time, but not necessarily all the time.

I agree with requiring the wizard to have a teacher. I don't think being illiterate is a problem. Lots of societies have / had very advanced cultures with lots of oral histories, texts, religious poems etc, so it's possible. But someone just experimenting on their own, going with the 'feel' of magic... That's what you do if you're not a college wizard. In other words - you're breaking the law, you're a huge risk to yourself and everyone around you, and the witch hunters will be after you. Having a teacher I think is a perfect way to solve the problem though.

It sounds like you have a good balance in the adventures. I don't think players mind being useless and weak in some scenes (as mentioned already, it can be a lot of fun to roleplay it), as long as they do get chances to shine from time to time.

I also agree it's weird that the wizards don't get college specific skills like the priests. I suspect that's only because they hadn't thought of the idea in time for the WoM supplement, of they scrapped the idea as being too complicated, but then regretted the decision and decided to do it with priests in SoF.

I think it's because there were none in 2nd edition (priests had in 2nd), so they kinda copied it.

Fortune dice to toughness wont make the bird much tougher, it will help it resist stuff like disease and external corruption. And of course help heal critical wounds, but this is usually done next morning in human form anyway.

I would say there are enough bonuses and abilties related to the animal form, without adding anything from the wizard himself. The wizard is forsaking their own form for that of the animal, and as such, I would not allow a retention or bonus based on the wizard's own stats.

I would also think that, unless they do some serious study time (unlikely in the span of time covered by adventuring) they will still need someone to teach them a new spell, or a grimoire to learn a spell from. Theoretically, any wizard can create a new spell by experimenting with their particular wind. It is a time-consuming and often dangerous activity, however. An adventuring/traveling lifestyle is not conducive to this, which is partially why the Colleges in Altdorf exist (besides training and policing of magical activity).

The only issue with allowing an amber wizard to not have Education, is that they can no longer read. Despite being more "wild", Amber Wizards are still members of one of the Colleges of Magic and are still educated (as a requirement by the Colleges). Otherwise, he is essentially a hedge wizard with an affinity for the Amber Wind rather than a member of one of the Colleges of Magic. So, no. I would probably not allow the amber wizard to replace education, unless they didn't want their PC to be an actual member of the College.

Someone refresh my memory; do Wizards automatically begin play with Education learned, or is it just listed as a class skill?

For some reason I thought it was just a class skill, and that you didn't have to take it, similar to having a Wizard with no Magical sight.

Aye, education is not necesary to be a wizard, so there has to be un-educated college wizards.

I can't remember if it's 3rd, or 2nd edition where they describe amber wizards as somewhat considered wild beasts by other wizards, and by some maybe even not considered "real" wizards. I think in 2nd edition they didn't even get educated at a college like the other wizards, but in the wilds. And to me, magic is not something you learn in books, you can do it, but it's not required.

Spivo said:

Magic is not required to have formal learning in order to do. Hence witches and hedge wizards, who sort of learn as they go without formal training. Being a member of one of the official Colleges is something completely different from that, and does require some form of structure and regimen to their initial training. Let me read through my Winds of Magic, though, to see specifically what it says about amber wizards.

dvang said:

Many wizards regard amber wizards as hedge wizards, or close. Think it's from 2nd edition. They don't follow the structure other colleges follow, and their closeness to beast would also suggest it impossible to force upon such structure on the college wizards.

I agree amber wizards shouldn't be able to learn it by chance/research, but that doesn't mean others can't teach them the spells. So in that way amber magic becomes something that is mouth to mouth knowledge.

Again, it's strange lands for me. Seen/played/GM'd amatyst, bright, grey, light, celest, gold, but never jade or amber wizards.