I've worked on my house rules for a long time, changed them, added to them, removed from them. I have a few basic rules when considering house rules

1. Simplicity. Rules should be light and not make the game cumbersome
2. The rules should change something significant. If it's just minor tweaks, then in most cases the rule isn't really needed. Keep the number of house rules to a minimum.
3. The rules should be consistent with the core rules in terms of mechanics

Now quite some time has passed since last time I changed my rules and this time significant changes has been made. I removed some old rules entirely because they just didn't have the intended effect.

I had an old rule that allowed players to use assist to parry/block an attack at another player. Initially I meant to give more team play options. After reading the article in LF7 about different action cards however I started thinking about it and went through all cards and considered their use. It seemed that rather than introducing more team play options I had removed them by making some of the cards that promotes teamplay less desirable. Thus I removed this rules and instead use the core rule about assisting. There are many cards that allow players to add to each others defence.

I also had an old rule that only allowed one fortune die to be bought for characteristics. I removed this and simply rules that there are no fortune dice for caracteristics. They aren't really needed and dice pools are big enough without.

One of my players bought a blunderbuss. He's a master archer and the way he used sniper shot with his blunderbuss just felt wrong... and the player agreed. I created a rule with one purpose. I wanted to make the blunderbuss a sort of newbie weapon that was easy to use, but that a master of ballistic skill wouldn't benefit a lot from. I also wanted to keep the rules simple and allowing more than one target to be hit without allowing entire engagements to be hit by one shot. The new rule actually inspired the player to use the easy rule of just adding one challenge die for each extra shot instead rolling the entire dice pool for rapid shot as well. It works pretty well and is much faster.

I had limited the creation points but went back to the core rule points, because our chaos star rule actually gives us all the balance we need for skill checks. Having less points actually promotes more specialized characters instead of well rounded characters, so the rule didn't really have the intended effect.

But what I really want here is some feedback, suggestions or just opinions. I've posted my house rules before and this community is a very valuable resource and I have found a lot of inspiration here both for house rules and my campaign. When we're done with TTT we will be starting on The Gathering Storm, or a slight modification of it where Edge of Night and Horror in Hugeldal are connected to the main story. I have read through the campaign and scenarios and I love them. There is so much room for creating an epic campaign and I really enjoy putting the campaign together based on those books. I just really want to have our house rules done before that, so hopefully we can play the entire campaign without changing anything

Gallows House Rules

• Skills cost a number of advancements equal to their new rank.
• Stat fortune dice have been removed from the game.
• Rat Catcher career characteristics: Changed to Toughness and Fellowship.
• Reading the Challenge Die: Chaos star = chaos star + 2 challenges + roll one extra Challenge Die.
• Outside of combat players may only add Characteristic dice to their dice pool. At GM discretion one Stance Die may be added if the player explains why.
• Bright wizards may add +1 damage for every extra power they spend on a spell.
• When using a social action card the active characteristic counts as being one higher.
• All ranged attacks except when using pistols get +1 challenge die if engaged by an enemy.
• Rapid Fire and Double Strike balancing: Recharge of double strike is 2. Maximum number of attacks with rapid fire is 3.
• Risking against recharge: A player can use an action before it has recharged, but must add one misfortune die for each recharge token on the card. If he is in a different stance than the side currently showing on the card, then he must add one additional misfortune die and then flip over the card. If the action succeeds additional recharge tokens equal to the cards normal recharge is placed on the card. If the action fails he suffers one fatigue or stress. This rule cannot be used with Active Defense actions.
• Critical wounds can't be soaked. If someone with 11 soak receives 7 wounds and two of those are critical, the resulting damage will be one normal wound and two critical wounds. Critical wounds are always drawn as extra wounds and not just converted from wounds already dealt. For each success over the highest success line (or 3 successes whichever is higher), the action inflicts +1 damage per success, up to a maximum amount equal to the level of training in the relevant skill.
• Surprised in combat: Getting the drop on someone in combat lets you add 2 fortune dice to the initiative check. In addition the ambusher adds 2 fortune dice to attack rolls in the first round and ignores defense and soak values of any surprised targets in the first round of combat.
• Medium armor adds one misfortune die to all Athletics, Coordination and stealth checks. Heavy armor adds two misfortune dice to all Athletics, Coordination and stealth checks.
• Rest & Recovery: If you get assistance to your recovery check from someone with first aid trained, you add one fortune die to the recovery roll pool for each rank they have trained in first aid. If you get assistance from someone with Medicine trained you may add one expertise die to your recovery check dice pool, and if the assisting player has 3 ranks trained in medicine you may add one additional expertise die. This means no more rolling for first aid when recovering. Just roll the recovery check with the bonus dice.
• Perfect roll: If a player rolls at least 6 successes, 2 boons and a Sigmars Comet he has the option to create a spectacular result. In combat this allows him to instantly kill most NPCs or in the case of special NPCs create some other effect like disarming, or giving the NPC a negative condition for the remainder of the encounter (in addition to the normal damage dealt). It also allows him to apply the full damage of the attack on another NPC in the same engagement, if he managed to kill the original target. Be creative with this, but the GM has to approve. In relation to other actions and skill checks that aren't damage attacks the player has more freedom to come up with a spectacular result... GM approval needed of course. This option is only open to players... not NPCs.
• All black powder weapons take one action to reload. All black powder weapons have an extra +1 pierce (except blunderbuss).
• Blunderbuss mechanic: A player can fire the blunderbuss at a 0d difficulty, the damage done is to the first target. Then a challenge die is added and if it is still a hit, another target in the engagement is hit. This continues until a shot misses. There is just one roll and every extra target is simply resolved by adding a challenge die to the pool already rolled. The blunderbuss always uses the basic ranged shot action card and no other action cards can be used with the blunderbuss. The blunderbuss being such a silly weapon, doesn't allow for perfect rolls to have any special effect.
• Fortune Points: Spending one fortune point allows you to do one of the following:
  ? Reroll one expertise die
  ? Reroll one misfortune die
  ? Add one fortune die to the dice pool after the dice pool has been rolled.
  ? Reroll a dice pool when using a healing potion.
  ? Remove a recharge token from any recharging action card or talent card.
  ? Player gets some narrative control. Perhaps that blunderbuss he just found is already reloaded. Perhaps that merchant has some medicine in his wagon etc. GM approves of course.
• Dwarf honour rules: If a dwarf acts dishonourably (by dwarf standards) he will be forced to change to the slayer career and spend the experience points required.
• GM A/C/E: NPCs have a base A/C/E pool based on the best combination pool among all NPCs, but one is added to each of A/C/E for every extra NPC in the encounter. All A/C/E is added together to one pool, but no NPC can ever use more from each than his maximum starting value in either A/C/E. At the end of every round the GM adds one to each pool.
• GM NPC Expertise usage: Using expertise allows a NPC to add a challenge die to a players pool as defense.
• GM NPC Cunning usage: Using cunning allows NPCs to momentarily change their stance to exchange more dice for stance dice.
• GM NPC fatigue/stress: NPCs can remove one from either of the A/C/E pool for every stress/fatigue they suffer instead of taking a wound. This can be used to take one additional maneuver as well.
  

Gallows said:

These are optional rules from GM toolkit. You might check the errata'ed cards of Bright Wizard Talent, Rapid Fire and Double Strike.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=93&esem=4

My other comments on your great contribution :

FORTUNE DICE ADVANCEMENTS : I also removed them from Characteristics and channeled them to Fortune Points. When starting the game, a character only have max 1 fortune Point instead of 3. Spending advancement may increase that maximum.

SKILL ADVANCEMENT COST WITH RANK : why ? 1 XP per session of 4 hours gaming. The Rank limitation in expertise dices is enough in my game.

RATCATCHER : good point.

CHALLENGE DIE : the main piece of the Gallow Theory. For now I didn't needed it but my players quite enjoy the Power of the Yes in V3 compared to previous edition, so I don't look for its low stat accomplishment.

ACTIONS CARDS WITH SOCIAL TRAIT +1d : interesting. In my game, people need to Influence the target a number of time equal to its WP usually (progress tracker). When using an action card with social trait, you gain additionnal influence when succeeding a roll compared to a flat roll without card.

RANGE ATTACK IN A MELEE +1d CHALLENGE : yep. People need to adjust that flat 1d difficulty to circumstances... the opponent isn't aware of you 0d ; the opponent is conscient = simple 1d ; the opponent is quite ready to respond to your attack = average 2d ; the opponent has got a far better position and is prepared = hard 3d ; the opponent waits for you and has got that position and you are sucking the mud on his boots = daunting 4d.

CRITICAL ARE UNSOAKABLE EXTRA WOUNDS : the high and permanent soak from wfrp3 impeaches death : people get unconscious before diyng Critical wounds = Endurance. I use the henchmen rules four critical for anybody (add normal wounds equal to its severity) but that wasn't enough to kill PCs (and by raw NPCs... we GM have to cheat on that). I'll try your way and tell you what i've got : critical are unsoakables extra wounds.

SURPRISE IN COMBAT : You might check the backstack attack and surprise attack... your variant unbalance the attractivity of these actions cards. As said I suggest for that to stay raw with a flat difficulty : if It's easier than a standard attack (1d challenge), then it's a 0d attack. That's how i rule it and it's nice.

ARMOR PENALTY : people will answer you've got encumberance for that... but what about swimming in armor ? It isn't encumberance, it's physics. In game, it gives interest to play without armor.... If not, why everybody hasn't yet got an armor, even light ? I'll try it.

REST AND RECOVERY : one big ruleplant by raw, yep. Keep in mind the Assistance roll may give people more than 1 white/yellow dice. Your variant doesn't. Being trained in healing skills count in your variant, but it is less attractive. BTW, in my game people may give First aid once per day to an ally, like assistance. If you want to heal more often, you might consider Splint & Bandage action card.dice.

PERFECT ROLL THEORY : Interesting. In my game, the roller describes all his result, player or GM, including the adversary's defence reaction description. It's doable in that game because PCs know the diffiiculty of the check. Beginners like experienced roleplayer enjoy that.

BLACK POWDER : why not ? I don't really like the pierce effect and the armor soak ignoring effect but I see the point instead of increasing damages... but I don't like it, again.

BLUNDERBUSS : but that is a rapid shot action card !!!

FORTUNE POINTS : nice. In my game Fortune Point gives you a nice and fair Characteristic dice or add a Challenge Dice to the adversary. That's all.

DWARF HONOR : I love my dwarf

NPC A/C/E : Nice idea. I stick to the base A/C/E pool in my game to keep it simple. No need to rule that i Think... Since i always may cheat if really necessary. I try to limit the max number of A/C/E I use on every single roll to a sort of "rank" of the ennemy (Why haven't they used the 5 difficulties to rate them instead of these countless silly skulls ?).

GM NPC Expertise usage: Yep I do that from you and it is great to add Challenge dice in defense with Expertise dice.

GM NPC Cunning usage: That's not an houserule, that's again a GM TOOLKIT variant.

GM NPC fatigue/stress: That's not an houserule, that's again a GM TOOLKIT variant.

My review:

# Skills cost a number of advancements equal to their new rank.

* Is this in-career or out of career? If it's out of career, I like it. If it's in career, I don't.

# Stat fortune dice have been removed from the game.

* This will shrink your dice pool. I'm indifferent about this. Probably not necessary unless players are simply losing track of all the white dice and where they are coming from.

# Rat Catcher career characteristics: Changed to Toughness and Fellowship.
* Players like choice. I'd make it Toughness and Fellowship or Agility

# Reading the Challenge Die: Chaos star = chaos star + 2 challenges + roll one extra Challenge Die.

* THIS I LIKE.

# Outside of combat players may only add Characteristic dice to their dice pool. At GM discretion one Stance Die may be added if the player explains why.

* This is just a deviation from the RAW. Probably unnecessary as PCs already start in one stance from neutral.

# Bright wizards may add +1 damage for every extra power they spend on a spell.

* Make this for all spellcasters. +1 damage or -1 recharge (or something for the non-combat spells)

# When using a social action card the active characteristic counts as being one higher.

* Is this just to balance the "Outside of combat" rule? Probably unnecessary as PCs already start in one stance from neutral.

# All ranged attacks except when using pistols get +1 challenge die if engaged by an enemy.

*THIS I LIKE

# Rapid Fire and Double Strike balancing: Recharge of double strike is 2. Maximum number of attacks with rapid fire is 3.

* Unnecessary. This is already clarified in the errata and the new Players Guide.

# Risking against recharge: A player can use an action before it has recharged, but must add one misfortune die for each recharge token on the card. If he is in a different stance than the side currently showing on the card, then he must add one additional misfortune die and then flip over the card. If the action succeeds additional recharge tokens equal to the cards normal recharge is placed on the card. If the action fails he suffers one fatigue or stress. This rule cannot be used with Active Defense actions.

*Clarify that this comes from the GM's Toolkit (GMT)

# Critical wounds can't be soaked. If someone with 11 soak receives 7 wounds and two of those are critical, the resulting damage will be one normal wound and two critical wounds. Critical wounds are always drawn as extra wounds and not just converted from wounds already dealt. For each success over the highest success line (or 3 successes whichever is higher), the action inflicts +1 damage per success, up to a maximum amount equal to the level of training in the relevant skill.

* THIS I LIKE (my guess is the players don't like dying more easily though)

# Surprised in combat: Getting the on someone in combat lets you add 2 fortune dice to the initiative check. In addition the ambusher adds 2 fortune dice to attack rolls in the first round and ignores defense and soak values of any surprised targets in the first round of combat.

* You could probably just have a chart for this and the one above

# Medium armor adds one misfortune die to all Athletics, Coordination and stealth checks. Heavy armor adds two misfortune dice to all Athletics, Coordination and stealth checks.

* THIS I LIKE.

# Rest & Recovery: If you get assistance to your recovery check from someone with first aid trained, you add one fortune die to the recovery roll pool for each rank they have trained in first aid. If you get assistance from someone with Medicine trained you may add one expertise die to your recovery check dice pool, and if the assisting player has 3 ranks trained in medicine you may add one additional expertise die. This means no more rolling for first aid when recovering. Just roll the recovery check with the bonus dice.

* THIS I LIKE. It cuts down on unnecessary rolling HOWEVER, then there's no chance that a medicine provider can become fatigued (although my guess is that the chances of failure on this roll are nil anyways).

# Perfect roll: If a player rolls at least 6 successes, 2 boons and a Sigmars Comet he has the option to create a spectacular result. In combat this allows him to instantly kill most NPCs or in the case of special NPCs create some other effect like disarming, or giving the NPC a negative condition for the remainder of the encounter (in addition to the normal damage dealt). It also allows him to apply the full damage of the attack on another NPC in the same engagement, if he managed to kill the original target. Be creative with this, but the GM has to approve. In relation to other actions and skill checks that aren't damage attacks the player has more freedom to come up with a spectacular result... GM approval needed of course. This option is only open to players... not NPCs.

* This I like.

# All black powder weapons take one action to reload. All black powder weapons have an extra +1 pierce (except blunderbuss).

* Clarify: They were Reload (1 maneuver) and Pierce 1. Now they are Reload (1 action) and Pierce 2?

# Blunderbuss mechanic: A player can fire the blunderbuss at a 0d difficulty, the damage done is to the first target. Then a challenge die is added and if it is still a hit, another target in the engagement is hit. This continues until a shot misses. There is just one roll and every extra target is simply resolved by adding a challenge die to the pool already rolled. The blunderbuss always uses the basic ranged shot action card and no other action cards can be used with the blunderbuss. The blunderbuss being such a silly weapon, doesn't allow for perfect rolls to have any special effect.

* INDIFFERENT

# Fortune Points: Spending one fortune point allows you to do one of the following:
? Reroll one expertise die
? Reroll one misfortune die
? Add one fortune die to the dice pool after the dice pool has been rolled.
? Reroll a dice pool when using a healing potion.
? Remove a recharge token from any recharging action card or talent card.
? Player gets some narrative control. Perhaps that blunderbuss he just found is already reloaded. Perhaps that merchant has some medicine in his wagon etc. GM approves of course.

* THIS I LIKE

# Dwarf honour rules: If a dwarf acts dishonourably (by dwarf standards) he will be forced to change to the slayer career and spend the experience points required.

* I'd put this in your "mention at the start of the campaign" but probably not necessary taking space in the book.

# GM A/C/E: NPCs have a base A/C/E pool based on the best combination pool among all NPCs, but one is added to each of A/C/E for every extra NPC in the encounter. All A/C/E is added together to one pool, but no NPC can ever use more from each than his maximum starting value in either A/C/E. At the end of every round the GM adds one to each pool.

* I'D CLARIFY: "For each NPC beyond the number of PC's..."

# GM NPC Expertise usage: Using expertise allows a NPC to add a challenge die to a players pool as defense.
# GM NPC Cunning usage: Using cunning allows NPCs to momentarily change their stance to exchange more dice for stance dice.
# GM NPC fatigue/stress: NPCs can remove one from either of the A/C/E pool for every stress/fatigue they suffer instead of taking a wound. This can be used to take one additional maneuver as well.

* THESE I LIKE

I would mention which are from the GM's Toolkit.

Otherwise, a great start.

jh

..

BTW, here's a reference to those GM's Toolkit rules:

GM’s toolkit (each if the GM allows them)

*

Nemesis cards - as PCs move down plotline, enemies become weaker and more disorganized
*

Non-career advances - normally double p.27; could be for normal cost
*

Non-career stance advances - normally not allowed; could be justified
*

Wound advances - normally just career; if down to zero could buy one at end of adventure;p.28
*

Party sheet p.28 - normally just one; could get a second for 1 adv/party member
*

Insanities (permanent) p.28 - normally permant; could use discipline 1x/month success can spend adv. is cured advances spent up to the severity.; gm can also waive with good rp’ing
*

Chicken, egg p.28 - can spend xp during the action
*

Expanded ACE (p.37) - could spend aggression for an extra maneuver; could spend cunning for stance
*

Prepareing for Actions (p.37, PC or NPC): costs one maneuver, grants one fewer recharge token if action succeeds
*

Sacrificing Actions for an extra maneuver (p.37, PC or NPC)- instead of using action, gain extra maneuver
*

Risking against recharge (p.38, PC or NPC): perform recharging action with a cost of 1 misfortune per recharge token.
*

Fortunate circumstances (p.38) - PC can recommend narrative lucky break
*

Mutually Exclusive character options (p.38) - players can limit themselves so that no two characters can have the same cards (career sheet, talent, action, advanced career, etc). Why would they do this?
*

Rank-based casting & invocation (p.39) - difficulty is based on characters rank compared to action rank
*

Higher lethality (p.39) - successes beyond card lines inflict one extra damage/effect per success

Oh sorry about the GM kit and other references sneaking in. Most of them were house rules before they became official optional rules (or rather very close variations, that we just changed to the official optional rules because only minor details seperated them). It was just easy to keep them in the house rules when so everyone was clear about what rules were different from the core rules

Thanks for all the feedback. Some good points and some things to think about. I'll read through it a few times and I can see a few thing already that can tweak our rules for the better. Great stuff!

Agree with the rank limitation for skills being enough. You need 21 xp after all to have 3 skill ranks in a skill. I think I'll change that back to core since my rules may discourage players from getting more than one point in some skills.

Simply using 0d base difficulty for surprise is enough too... actually I think that rule I have is from TGS now that I come to think of it. But using 0d is better and that would work with the backstab cards as well. Nice one.

We don't use encumbrance in our game at all to be honest. Players can carry as much as they can track, to a reasonable degree. But we handle that without hard rules.

The rules for first aid/medicine is only in effect for daily recovery checks. If you use first aid in combat or the rally step normal rules apply. You can't get more than 3 fortune dice with first aid, but you can get 2 yellow if someone has 3 medicine. And getting aid from both skills means 3 fortune + 2 expertise. You can get more if you're good at first aid, but with this rule even someone with 2 inteligence can give you decent help. It's more average, but no chance of failure. Sometimes players have travelled 5 days and with four players that's 40+ rolls to recover where players need to wait for each other to roll for first aid or medicine.

A clarification about the black power weapons. Yes they need an actual action to reload and have pierce 2 (except blunderbuss). I changed the blunderbuss because being able to hit 10+ enemies and use sniper shot etc. with it was too much. But yes the blunderbuss works a bit like rapid shot now, except the damage doesn't change for each shot

As for the A/C/E I needed a rule where I could simply have one pool even with different groups. I also found it weird that a goblin, a snotling and a nurgling had more A/C/E than three orcs, because they were different creatures and thus not sharing the A/C/E. My rule is just a way for me to simply create a common pool for the encounter. I never cheat. Dice fall where they fall and in the session we had yesterday a pretty tough fight ended pretty quickly because the NPCs rolled very bad and the players rolled well. They got slaughtered, but it was a good fight. It goes the other way too though... all my dice rolls are open, so players know that I'm not going to fiddle with them if they die.

I made the social action rule because I felt that social action cards weren't really needed as you could just as well roll a pure skill check to achieve the same in many situations. It was also to reward players who spent points on them, even if their stats weren't above average.

Here are some of my thoughts, apologies if I repeat what someone prior to me said.

# Skills cost a number of advancements equal to their new rank.

This seems like it penalizes players from getting new skills. I could see levels of Training costing for each level of training (so a second training of a skill would cost 2 points), but just to acquire the skill seems a bit harsh. Skills will be less bought than talents and action cards, since they cost a heck of a lot more (especially at higher ranks). Honestly, I'd think that additional skills should be emphasized, rather than avoided. Or, am I reading what you posted wrong and you meant skill training costs a number of advancements equal to their new rank. In that case, as I said, I can see it, although since PCs are already restricted to number of training levels based on rank anyway, I'm not sure it is needed.

# Stat fortune dice have been removed from the game.

I can see this. I'm not exactly sure what these fortune dice really represent anyway, and I think that between Training and Specialization enough dice to represent the PC's ability are available. Then again, there are plenty of monsters who have additional fortune dice on a stat. Are PCs too powerful that this needs to be taken away? What about, instead of removing it, merely restricting it to 1 per rank like training a skill?

# Rat Catcher career characteristics: Changed to Toughness and Fellowship.

Hmm, I'm not sure that Fel is appropriate. They are dingy, dirty, and mostly solitary (except for their pet). I think the majority of people actually avoid them (and vice versa). I can see Toughness, though.

# Reading the Challenge Die: Chaos star = chaos star + 2 challenges + roll one extra Challenge Die.

Seems a bit harsh. I could see a chaos star = 1 challenge (in addition to chaos star effects). I could see a chaos star = reroll (in addition to chaos star effects). Having it be both, or worse, being the 2x challenges AND a reroll that you suggest, seems excessive. It's only an 8-sided die, so chances of a chaos star aren't all that slim. If combat is too easy, I'd increase the difficulty in other ways, such as making the default difficulty be 2d, or else making combat primarily opposed tests (which normally increases the difficulty)

# Outside of combat players may only add Characteristic dice to their dice pool. At GM discretion one Stance Die may be added if the player explains why.

The first part is not a house rule, it's the actual rule. I house rule the second part the way you suggest, one stance position if they explain why (or roleplay it)

# Bright wizards may add +1 damage for every extra power they spend on a spell.

This is no longer a house rule. The errata'd Aqshy order card officially does this.

# When using a social action card the active characteristic counts as being one higher.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to do this? Is it because of the harshness of your chaos star? What is it about social actions that is so difficult for your players that they need their characteristics increased to compensate?

[ EDIT ] It sounds like you're being too free with what pure skill checks can do. If someone wanted to charm or Intimidate someone else, that's a "Perform a Stunt" action using Charm/Intimidate, assuming it being done in a Social Encounter. A skill by itself, in an Encounter, is not able to be used "offensively". Skills as maneuvers are typically things like climbing over something to move, coordination to avoid, etc. This is why social action cards are NEEDED by the group, because otherwise the PCs are stuck using Perform a Stunt to do pretty much every social action during an encounter.

# All ranged attacks except when using pistols get +1 challenge die if engaged by an enemy.

Sounds reasonable. The difficulty of an attack is always subject to the GM's decision, but formalizing it to officially say "engaged is always +1 difficulty" probably isn't a bad thing.

# Rapid Fire and Double Strike balancing: Recharge of double strike is 2. Maximum number of attacks with rapid fire is 3.

Mmm. This is no longer a house rule. The errata'd Double Strike has a recharge of 2. The errata'd Rapid Fire has a maximum of 3 attacks too.

# Risking against recharge: A player can use an action before it has recharged, but must add one misfortune die for each recharge token on the card. If he is in a different stance than the side currently showing on the card, then he must add one additional misfortune die and then flip over the card. If the action succeeds additional recharge tokens equal to the cards normal recharge is placed on the card. If the action fails he suffers one fatigue or stress. This rule cannot be used with Active Defense actions.

This is actually two house rules. First, that they may use an action before it has finished recharging. By doing this, though, you remove most of the incentive/ability to use fortune points (and their use to remove recharge tokens). I would suggest you aren't refreshing the fortune pool enough. If you reallt want to keep it, I would make this harsher, like adding a challenge die or two misfortune dice. The point for recharge is to make it difficult and discourage using the same action over and over, and you're getting rid of that for the most part. My personal opinion would be to leave it as is, and force them to use fortune points to speed it up if they really need/want to use it. Your second house rule here is allowing the use of an action card's side that they are not in the stance for. I would give this a very hearty NO, don't allow it at all. It partially defeats the purpose of the stance system, and it removes a lot of the wardance card abilities/benefits to flip between stances. If the player wants to use a different side of the card then they can always spend stress to move their stance over to the other side.

# Critical wounds can't be soaked. If someone with 11 soak receives 7 wounds and two of those are critical, the resulting damage will be one normal wound and two critical wounds. Critical wounds are always drawn as extra wounds and not just converted from wounds already dealt. For each success over the highest success line (or 3 successes whichever is higher), the action inflicts +1 damage per success, up to a maximum amount equal to the level of training in the relevant skill.

I don't have a problem with this, and considered doing this myself, other than the 'extra' damage for additional successes. I wouldn't do that. Honestly, I would suggest that if you want to reward extra successes, allow them to convert into boons (2 for 1, probably) instead of straight to extra damage. One of the design decisions was to make the best/better hits ones that had both successes and boons, rather than ones that just generate the most successes.

# Surprised in combat: Getting the on someone in combat lets you add 2 fortune dice to the initiative check. In addition the ambusher adds 2 fortune dice to attack rolls in the first round and ignores defense and soak values of any surprised targets in the first round of combat.

Hmm, why give them higher initiative slots rather than just giving them a free round to perform actions? Should they really act "faster" in subsequent rounds of combat? the extra fortune dice to attack in the first round are fine, but I would NOT ignore armor and soak. Why does having surprise ignore the defensive benefits of the armor they are wearing? It really shouldn't. The extra fortune dice for their pool already gives them an edge and potential bonus to hit and damage, as well as the fact that those surprised cannot use parry/dodge/block defensive cards.

# Medium armor adds one misfortune die to all Athletics, Coordination and stealth checks. Heavy armor adds two misfortune dice to all Athletics, Coordination and stealth checks.

Yes, I would agree with these. I would actually go so far as to say the pentalty applies to all (Ag) tests. Best quality armor would then reduce this penalty by 1.

# Rest & Recovery: If you get assistance to your recovery check from someone with first aid trained, you add one fortune die to the recovery roll pool for each rank they have trained in first aid. If you get assistance from someone with Medicine trained you may add one expertise die to your recovery check dice pool, and if the assisting player has 3 ranks trained in medicine you may add one additional expertise die. This means no more rolling for first aid when recovering. Just roll the recovery check with the bonus dice.

Hmm, I'd have to re-check the books, but I believe this is already the way "resting" recovery works (or it's something very similar anyway). You do state that this means no more rolling for first aid. Does this mean that you do not allow any "field" medicine, and only the nightly "resting" recovery rolls are made? It seems that immediate treatment of first aid/medicine to recent wounds should do *something*. Does it trigger a recovery roll instead of a first aid/medicine roll? Interesting idea, but I'm not sure it makes sense to me, as it becomes less based on the medical person's ability and more about how robust the patient is.

# Perfect roll: If a player rolls at least 6 successes, 2 boons and a Sigmars Comet he has the option to create a spectacular result. In combat this allows him to instantly kill most NPCs or in the case of special NPCs create some other effect like disarming, or giving the NPC a negative condition for the remainder of the encounter (in addition to the normal damage dealt). It also allows him to apply the full damage of the attack on another NPC in the same engagement, if he managed to kill the original target. Be creative with this, but the GM has to approve. In relation to other actions and skill checks that aren't damage attacks the player has more freedom to come up with a spectacular result... GM approval needed of course. This option is only open to players... not NPCs.

Interesting. Is this really needed though? Anyway, I might suggest, instead of making a set value (so only large dice pools have a chance), is just treat it as an actual "perfect roll". I.e., every beneficial die has a positive symbol (ie success, comet, or boon) ... and none of the negative dice have a negative symbol. (delay and fatigue symbols from stance dice are ignored). This way, no matter the size of the dice pool, every roll has the potential (albeit extremely slim) to get a "perfect roll".

# All black powder weapons take one action to reload. All black powder weapons have an extra +1 pierce (except blunderbuss).

They take an Action to reload? They already take a maneuver or else add a challenge die. I'd be wary of hobbling blackpowder weapons too much. They are already relatively weaker/comparable in effectiveness compared to bow versions, and I don't think adding +1 pierce is enough to offest being only able to fire every other round plus giving up an action every other round. I might suggest just tweaking the current rules by requiring 2 maneuvers to reload, adding +1 challenge die per maneuver not spent on reloading, then also giving blackpowder weapons +1 pierce. Costing an action is just crippling.

# Blunderbuss mechanic: A player can fire the blunderbuss at a 0d difficulty, the damage done is to the first target. Then a challenge die is added and if it is still a hit, another target in the engagement is hit. This continues until a shot misses. There is just one roll and every extra target is simply resolved by adding a challenge die to the pool already rolled. The blunderbuss always uses the basic ranged shot action card and no other action cards can be used with the blunderbuss. The blunderbuss being such a silly weapon, doesn't allow for perfect rolls to have any special effect.

A big mechanic is that the blunderbuss is indiscriminate. It hits the entire engagement, and should not be able to pick out individuals in an engagement (friend or foe). I really don't like the idea that it can potentially snipe only enemies fighting in an engagement. It also really should have as much chance of hitting all combatants as a single one (if not more chance to hit multiple people than a single one). If you want to represent the random nature, have every additional individual in an engagement roll a single fortune die. If they roll a success they have avoided the shrapnel, otherwise they are hit. I don't know. Honestly, it seems like the blunderbuss should have more of a chance to hit more targets, rather than fewer. I will agree that a blunderbuss probably should not be allowed to use other ranged action cards other than the basic Ranged Attack (except maybe only ranged cards specific to the blunderbuss ... potential for new action cards!)

[ EDIT ] If you have 10+ enemies in a single engagement, you probably need to start using henchmen rules for some of those enemies. Most engagements will probably have just 4-5 folks in them, counting both friends and foes. Most enemies won't be engaged with each other as they approach the players, unless it's a confined space. Only once they want to attack PCs will they start grouping into actual engaged range, at which time the blunderbuss will be hitting the friendly PCs too (since they are part of the engagement). So, I could see a blunderbuss hitting 2, maybe 3 enemies as they advance, depending on circumstances/terrain. Then only time it might hit more, you're also hitting friendlies too.

# Fortune Points: Spending one fortune point allows you to do one of the following:
? Reroll one expertise die
? Reroll one misfortune die
? Add one fortune die to the dice pool after the dice pool has been rolled.
? Reroll a dice pool when using a healing potion.
? Remove a recharge token from any recharging action card or talent card.
? Player gets some narrative control. Perhaps that blunderbuss he just found is already reloaded. Perhaps that merchant has some medicine in his wagon etc. GM approves of course.

Allowing the reroll of an expertise die is pretty powerful, compared to the standard adding of 1 fortune die. Keep in mind that an expertise die only has 1 side blank, while a fortune die has 3. I kind of like the ability to add a fortune die after the roll, though, instead of when making the pool. I'm curious/interested in knowing why you feel the fortune dice mechanics need to be altered, however? I think the majority of issues might just stem from not giving the players enough fortune refreshes during the course of a game, although I have no knowledge of that. It seems to me, however, that if fortune dice seem to limiting the players don't use them enough. Unlike the previous versions of WFRP, fortune points are not meant to be saved until the end of the game when fighting the big boss. They should be used liberally throughout the session and should refresh several times during a session (depending on how well the players are roleplaying). Honestly, when in doubt, add a fortune point to the pool. When it reaches max, woefully tell the players that hadn't spent any that they just lost the chance at a fortune point because they hadn't spent one previously. You'll find that eventually the players will spend more, meaning the pool can refresh more often.

# Dwarf honour rules: If a dwarf acts dishonourably (by dwarf standards) he will be forced to change to the slayer career and spend the experience points required.

Interesting. It makes sense, I suppose. I'm not sure that I personally consider it an actual "house rule", since it is more of a story/character development element than anything else. It is something important to make sure you discuss with dwarf players at character creation, though. You probably also want to have a firm grasp on what constitutes dwarven "dishonorable" acts, and explain that to the player as well. I might also consider a "three strikes" concept, depending on the act. A minor act might force some sort of penance or reparation, but not actual conversion to a Slayer.

# GM A/C/E: NPCs have a base A/C/E pool based on the best combination pool among all NPCs, but one is added to each of A/C/E for every extra NPC in the encounter. All A/C/E is added together to one pool, but no NPC can ever use more from each than his maximum starting value in either A/C/E. At the end of every round the GM adds one to each pool.

You might want to be a bit more specific. The rules already give each TYPE of NPC an A/C/E pool, and Nemesis NPCs get their own as well. So, what you are talking about, really, is having groups of the same type of NPC adding more dice to the pool for their type. I think this is a good idea, that they give additional A/C/E based on the number of the enemy of that type, rather than a static value from the book. After all, there are more of them to draw from the pool. However, you do risk complicating things/making things difficult when trying to keep track of how many A/C/E dice a specific NPC used when having a 'maximum to be spent' value per individual. I'm also not sure why you feel that NPCs should regain A/C/E pool dice each round. Are NPCs too easy? I don't think that is necessary or a particularly good idea.

[ EDIT ] Ok, you want a single pool for all enemies in the encounter instead of separate ones for the different types. That's a bit different. I'm not sure its very feasible, though. It's more paperwork to keep track that a particular NPC (or NPC type) did not use more than their initial allotment, than it is to have separate pools for the different types. Really, for a single pool and to be simple, just combine all the dice from all the pools of each type, and then say that no individual NPC can use more than 1 of each type of die per round (or something similar). That way you really don't need to track which NPC used how many dice.

# GM NPC Expertise usage: Using expertise allows a NPC to add a challenge die to a players pool as defense.

Hmm. Again, I'm not sure why you feel the need for this. Combat should be bloody. Do you really need to make NPCs more survivable/dangerous? Nemesis NPCs can always use the Improved defense cards, for example (generic ones could too, although I personally wouldn't bother for them. They're pretty much meant to die horrifically)

# GM NPC Cunning usage: Using cunning allows NPCs to momentarily change their stance to exchange more dice for stance dice.

Should generic NPCs really be micro-managed to allow them to change their stance? Do they really need to? Nemeis NPCs probably should have their own stance track if you want to change their stance. I don't necessarily think this is a bad idea, mind you. It certainly adds an additional use in combat for Cunning dice, but I am unsure if it really is useful in the long run. I dont think it makes a large difference either way, although it will probably make NPCs more powerful since they get access to more Reckless and Conservative dice, which are both significantly better than characteristic dice.

# GM NPC fatigue/stress: NPCs can remove one from either of the A/C/E pool for every stress/fatigue they suffer instead of taking a wound. This can be used to take one additional maneuver as well.

I like this.

The percentages here are an estimate based on 1000 rolls using this dice roller: http://www.gmtools.excelocms.com/dice_roller.html

Chaos star = chaos star + 2 challenges + reroll

This gives the following chances to get a success with this dice pool (2 blue + 2 red + 2 yellow + 2 white + 2 black) is:

1d = 83.7%

2d = 63.4%

3d = 48.2 %

4d = 31.9%

If Chaos star = chaos star + 1 challenge + reroll you get the following success percentages with the same dice pool:

1d = 84.1%

2d = 67.1%

3d = 54.0%

4d = 35.5%

If Chaos star = chaos star + reroll you get the following percentages with the same dice pool

1d = 84.6%

2d = 72.7%

3d = 61.2%

4d = 43.5%

With the core rules you get:

1d = 88.7%

2d = 75.2%

3d = 67.3%

4d = 51.7%

That's the reasoning behind our rules but I have loong been in doubt if 1 challenge on the chaos star is enough. One thing is statistical chance and actual play is another. I'll try it the next couple of sessions and see if there is a difference. But having over 50% chance on a 4d roll just seems too much and that's not even a great dice pool. Players can have more dice that that easily once they are rank 2+ If you read the descriptions in the core book, they just don't fit the actual success rate:

1d = An easy task represents something that should pose little challenge to most characters, but something could go wrong and failure is still possible.

2d = An average task represents a routine action where success is common enough to be expected, but failure is not surprising. A character with the proper training, resources, bla bla... should reasonably expect to succees slightly more often than he fails.

3d = As above but fail more often than he succeeds

4d = as above but will likely fail more often than he succeeds. Success is difficult but possible.

Those descriptions from the core book actually fit option number 2 the best I think (1 challenge + reroll), when you consider they may be referring to someone with only one yellow die.

As for first aid... my rules are for daily recovery only. To prevent having four players resting 5 days roll 40+ rolls. First aid in the field (combat / rally step / end of combat etc.) still requires rolls.

My A/C/E rules are poorly written. I intend them like you say and will clarify. I meant to write that on a single action they can't spend more than their initial value. I don't keep track of whom uses what. It's just one big pool shared by all NPCs in the encounter. But an orc with expertise 1 can never use more than 1 expertise die on a single action. But in theory he could use them all if none of the other NPCs used any. Thanks for the heads up

Rat catcher uses Fellowship a lot for his pet, so it just seems wrong that it isn't a career characteristic. But again. Not really a big thing

Some of the things you mention have already been changed based on feedback in this thread.

You guys rock!

If I may add few things on Chaos Star rule.

First thing is to remember to not depend on Dice Roller to count probabilities.
The results are statistics of rolled dice, not probabilities (I made the rolls with same dice pools, and results were different by +/- 5% each time I rolled).

Another thing is, that when you add a reroll to a symbol that was not designed to do so, you are affecting not only success chances, you change the core mechanic, and how system behaves.

Normal difficulty range is flat, and goes somewhat like this: simple=1, normal=2, hard=3, daunting=4 (not number of dice, just some values for presentation purposes).
Difficulty normal is as much more difficult from simple, that hard from normal, and daunting from hard, and allows for easy and seemless difficulty scale.

When you add a reroll, you suddenly change that to be geometric: simple=1, normal=3, hard=6, daunting=10 (again, not number of dice, and not accurate numbers, they are just to show, what happens with the difficulty).

So the difference between difficulty normal and simple is 2, but difference from difficulty hard and normal is no more 2, its bigger, even more so if you look at the difference between daunting and hard and compare it with normal and simple.
It doesn't scale well, and you may have to put something in between.
It may also lead to some situations, where rolling Chaos Stars = failed test (especially on higher difficulties).

With core rules, the power of Challenge die is somewhere in the middle between 2 Misfortune and 3 Misfortune, when you add a reroll, its not anymore.
With reroll, and 2 challenges it becomes much more powerfull than 3 Misfortune, so if your players depend on some cards, or combination of cards that grant 3 Misfortune, they may suddenly be forced to change that.

Reroll also raises the chance to roll other symbols, so it also increases the number of Banes rolled, and Chaos Stars rolled, and Chaos Stars fuel many negative effects (ie. miscasts, corruption, misfire), so it means they will happen more often, and in higher degree.

It also affects many action cards as some add 1 or more Challenge dice to the pool opposed to cards that add some Misfortune, and as a result makes cards that were usefull to the players become less wanted, and more dangerous (if such a card has also Chaos Star entry, and Chaos Stars happen more often, when you add a reroll).

And at the end, reroll bogs the game down, and require a lot of Challenge dice, which aren't cheap and easy to get.
Every time you roll a Chaos Star you need to get another Challenge, roll it, count, and if you make a more demanding test with higher difficulty, and add Expertise dice, you may roll, and roll, and roll...

I stongly reccomend redesigning this rule, and removing reroll, as its impact is much more than simple change of success rates.

Besides, this rule was created when the system was fresh, and with latest add of Corruption rules, Diseases, and incoming Permament injuries GM's were presented with very powerfull tools to keep their player's at bay.

No need to make it that harsh on them.

Sunatet said:

Our chaos star rules are actually a benefit for the players in combat as monsters don't hit them as often, but I agree that the reroll changes a lot. The 1000 rolls I made for each is a decent estimate of the propability though. A flat number of challenges (1 or 2) on the chaos symbol may as you say work better since the reroll does affect a lot of other things as well (magic backlash, diseases getting extra symptoms etc.)

Thanks for your great feedback sunaset, I'll evaluate our rule and talk with the players about your good points.

This dice pool ( 2 blue + 2 red + 2 yellow + 2 white + 2 black ):

No reroll and chaos star = 2 challenges

1d = 85.2%

2d = 67.7%

3d = 48.8%

4d = 33.4%

No reroll and chaos star = 1 challenge

1d = 86.5%

2d = 70.3%

3d = 59.0%

4d = 44.7%

5d = 30.8%

I just very much want the descriptions from the core book about the difficulties to be true, because they make sense to me.

1d = success most of the time

2d = success slightly more often than failure

3d = failure more often than success

4d = success is hard but possible

So the system I want should conform to those descriptions for an average person trained in his field (weapon skill, charm or whatever.)

Lets try with a newly created character and test him in something he has trained and is good at. This could give him a dice pool like this

(2 blue + 2 red + 1 yellow + 1 white + 1 black)

No reroll and chaos star = 2 challenges

1d = 78.6%

2d = 58.9%

3d = 41.2%

4d = 26.5%

No reroll and chaos star = 1 challenge

1d = 81.2%

2d = 63.2%

3d = 45.4%

4d = 33.0%

Core system

1d = 82.8%

2d = 66.2%

3d = 56.4%

4d = 40.6%

5d = 29.4%

The core rule doesn't even conform to the description of the difficulty for newly created characters, so when players start getting past rank 2 it's no longer reliable. Looking at the percentages above having the chaos star count as no reroll, but two challenges is the only option that fits the descriptions of the difficulties for both newly created characters and more experienced characters. I think that's a better option than having a reroll. It produces more reliable rolls. Another option would be for combat to have a base difficulty of 2d and then use either core rules or having the chaos star count as just one challenge, because the percentages are lower with less stance dice.

The difference between 1000 rolls and 10.000 rolls with [2 blue + 2 red + 2 yellow + 2 white + 2 black + 4 purple] was:

1000 rolls: 33.4%

10.000 rolls: 36.2%

That's a difference of 2.8% point, which isn't bad. Going for 100.000 rolls wouldn't produce that much of a difference, so while 1000 rolls isn't accurate it still gives a decent estimate of the differences between the systems discussed.

Looking at the core system it seems like it's really a die short. If you were to make the difficulty go from 1d to 5d instead of 0d to 4d it would work better. With combat being a base 2d as well.

I pray for a summary when you guys are done with the statistics...

Spivo said:

Hehe yeah I know. I'll poke you when it's done. I think I have the most important conclusion though. That a reroll doesn't change the success rate that much, but it does introduce issues with more chaos stars being rolled.

So the reroll is not good and it's not that important if you want to lower the success rate either.

But it's not so much right and wrong. It's more a matter of what you like... It's just nice to not create a broken system when trying to lower the success rate of high difficulty rolls.

Gallows said:

Yup, totally agree.

To each his own

I was just posting to provide feedback, and point possible problems, and I don't intend to try to convince people if I'm right or wrong.

It's a Houserules section after all

No more statistics from me, I promise (I will just mention, that adding additional die, should put the system close to what used to be when 2-nd ed was rolling - not that it is right, or wrong, it just should work more or less like that ).

Sunatet said:

Meant it in a good way sunaset, your point about the reroll was important and it's nice to get some good feedback, so I can fix issues like that

This dice pool (2 blue + 2 red + 2 yellow + 2 white + 2 black):

This person SHOULD be exceptionally good at what they do. Not only do they have above average characteristic (4), but it is finely honed (+1 fortune die), and they are also extremely well-trained (+2 expertise dice) as well as specialized (+1 fortune die). They are an olympic athlete doing something they have been specifically training for. Almost everything will seem relatively easy for them to succeed at.

One thing you need to remember that the PCs are heroes, whether they know it or not. They are usually pretty exceptional, especially if they are designed/focused on something (as your examples all show). The difficulties need to relate to "common" folk and NPCs too.

1d = success most of the time
2d = success slightly more often than failure
3d = failure more often than success
4d = success is hard but possible

Let's try an "average" NPC. We'll ignore Defense and Fortune points (assume cloth armor, so just a soak value, for example).

2x blue, 1x red - not trained, not specialized

1d - 62.1%
2d - 42.0%
3d - 28.4%
4d - 9.5%

Now we'll let him be trained
2x blue, 1x red, 1x yellow

1d - 76%
2d - 55.8%
3d - 39.8%
4d - 25.8%

So, both of those fall well within the idea of the listed descriptions, although the second one (with training) actually fits a little bit better.

Stats above 3 are above average (for humans). Having more than one training die is exceptional, and pretty much unheard of for NPCs/common folk.

I'll also comment that the above tests aren't completely accurate, because, in my experience, the number of misfortune dice nearly always outnumber the number of fortune dice. There are always plenty of ways/reasons, besides armor Defense rating, to give extra misfortune dice. Make use of that. In the sewers and there is the distracting smell of rotting things? +1 misfortune die! Low light, +1 misfortune die! (unless they are a dwarf or elf). Lots of people talking, making it hard to hear? +1 misfortune die! The leather being worked is old and stiff and dirty? +1 misfortune die! The more the merrier when it comes to misfortune dice!

Keep in mind that the 'difficulty' is not meant to scale with the ability of the performer. You need to throw that idea out right now. While conceptually, a master lockpick might find a complex lock "easy" compared to a novice thief. Regardless who is doing the lockpicking, the lock is considered the same difficulty. A complex lock might be a 2d difficulty, and its the same "difficulty" for both the novice as well as the master. It's essentially a property of the lock. Thus, comparatively, the master will have an 'easy' time with the lock due to his skill (training, specialization) while the novice might indeed find the lock a worthy 2d challenge. Both will be rolling 2d when trying to pick that exact same lock. It's called an "average" difficulty because it has 2d, but it isn't actually an average difficulty for the master because of their training.

Essentially, the challenge ratings and their descriptions are based upon average "lowest denominator" / "common man" NPCs' ability. PCs are meant to be better and do better. Gone are the days of having a 30% chance to hit, and spending round upon round of hoping for a hit, or to try to succeed at a skill test that you are supposedly skilled in, yet still only have a 30-40% chance of succeeding at.

dvang said:

That's what I thought about your stat from the very beginning, Gallows.

I haven't seen any need to make the game harder. Something, in combat, I might feel it is to easy to hit, but I never felt it outside combat for others tasks. So I manage to adapt often the combat base challenge... some examples :

0d when surprised, 1d when the adversary is aware but not quite ready, 2d when he's waiting for you, 3d if he's waiting for you in a very good position, 4d if he's waiting there and you are laying down in the mud near him...

Using the core creation rules having stats of 4+ is very common for starting characters in their career speciality.

Yeah. I've run some more rolls with different setups ranging from a completely newbie at a task to a superb master with 6 in his characteristics. In the extreme examples even having the chaos star count as 2 challenges doesn't do that much.

I have settles on having the chaos star simply count as one challenge and no reroll, because with that I feel like an average, trained and specialized player will fall within the success rates of the description. Combat works out well ebough. Even a master with [2 blue + 4 red + 3 yellow + 2 white + 4 black + 4 purple] will miss about 38% (about 30% with core rules) of the time and even on hits the effect will not be as great. An average newly created character with weapon skill trained and specialized [1 blue + 2 red + 1 yellow + 1 white + 4 black + 4 purple] will miss about 85% (about 80% with core rules) of the time. This isn't that different from core and in combat it doesn't matter that much, because if the players hit more easily, so will the monsters. If anything having a lower difficulty in combat will make it harder on the players because great fighters generally have better defence in terms of adding challenge dice than monsters do.

Outside of combat having the chaos star count as a single challenge makes average characters trained in a skill fall within the descriptions while an above average character (rank 2, 5 characteristic dice and 2 ranks in a skill), doesn't fall that far ourside the descriptions.

As long as you have fun with that way of playing, it's great ! I think your houserule with chaos star bring back the V1/V2 good'ol'time with far more flat failures.

willmanx said:

Yeah but I also remember how frustrating that could be sometimes

If we get too far from core, then outside of combat the rolls suggested in the official adventures may be too hard.

double post

Oh, I agree that PCs will tend to start with 4's in a stat, especially in their primary focus. The fact is, again, though, that the challenge rating also takes into account NPCs. The PCs are heroes, even from creation. A PC soldier right out of creation is going to be significantly better than an NPC soldier.

The challenge system, however, is geared mainly towards the common NPC as a baseline. PCs will be more competent than their NPC counterparts, because they are PCs and are naturally more powerful. If you want players to have more of a challenge initially, then lowering their creation points is an option, so it's a lower powered game. You could also restrict training and specialization advances by requiring the PCs to find a special trainer, and it has to be a different trainer for each rank of training. And so on.

WFRP3, though, is designed to be dangerous and bloody. Those that are average, like the common folk, are hard-pressed to live (its a grim and gritty and dark world for the peasants), but those who are above average (including a lot of bad-guy enemies) begin to be a major threat, even to each other.

So, I personally don't see an issue with the hit chances of PCs and above-average enemy NPCs.

Gallows said:

My only question is, with these increased numbers, how often do you see multiple success lines being triggered off the cards? I also wonder if the miss chance is really improving the game experience? I used to be on the same page about the low miss chance, but I left it quickly after running a number of times. The biggest turning point for me was in the TOA where the designers went into a combat example and explained that a combat check doesn't represent a single swing or a single action, but a series of events that play out in a "timeless world." Since this is how it can play out and since I switched my direction and my player's input in what their character's were doing in a round, I have found that the system plays out great as is. After 5 or six swings of missing, you finally hit and vice a versa. It also helps to speed up combat so that the rolls go on faster and faster.

I like your star result idea. However, I wouldn't make it a flat out rule. Chaos stars are chaos stars. They have an effect if the GM wants them to or not or if another effect in game triggers them. So in some cases, absolutely it should count as a fail and a bane. Others, not so much. It's up to the scene, situation, and what is going on in game. I ran a fight in a fog once and had chaos stars count as a miss and an exertion as they were trying to track down their opponents. It was fun for the players. I also use them, at times, to reflect something special in a scene...sometimes cluing players into a strange event that they don't even know about (like when they were secretly poisoned. Each action with a star I gave them a chit. Once their chits were over their Toughness, they went out. It was a fun scene.

I do think the overall advancement - power curve system is a bit whacky as it stands right now. I know you took my suggestion a long time ago, but after a year of play, the reduced starting characteristics (no characteristic above 4 rule unless it is a racial stat then it can go up to 5), really helps. Lowering the starting characteristics and points is a big step in the right the direction. We roll off easy a lot and there is good failure there too.

I also feel that the real problem is in the advancements. I posted this somewhere else here, but if you want to slow down progress and you are worried about high-end curve, I think the advancement mechanic needs to be readdressed. Slower rewards equals longer play without super buffs. Players get between 1-7 xp a night. 5 xp equals 1 advance. Characteristics stay the same cost wise. Talents, actions, specialties, wound threshold: 2, Skills 3 (they really are an amazing die).

Good gaming,

Commoner

My players actually hit most of the time with out current rule [chaos star = chaos star + 2 challenges + reroll]. They have never had any issues with hitting.

The biggest issue is actually with NPCs not hitting the PCs, which brings me back to the conclusion of thinking [chaos star = chaos star + 1 challenge] is the happy medium.

I have played a full campaign where the players had limited creation points, only started with one stance in each direction, skills costing their new rank and other things. Those rules haven't had the effect I wanted. The players really specialized because of that. You could argue that the chaos star rule was part of the problem, but in reality I think they would have done the same with the RAW rule.

With the chaos star being just 1 challenge and no reroll NPCs will hit the players more often and combat will as a result become harder for them. NPCs are hit much harder by the chaos star rule, because they tend not to have so many defensive options as players do. One iron breaker in our group has all the defensive cards, advanced parry/block, all the defensive sagas etc. and other cards that allow him to refresh his defenses. Even the mage in our group was fairly successful with his defense. The players benefit from the chaos star rule rather than suffer from it in terms of survivability in combat. I think the rule is one of the reasons none of the players have died in 25 sessions... simply because their defence is so effective with the rule we used.

So I am changing the chaos star to be just one challenge to balance combat and to get a reasonable success rate even if players get past rank 2. When using RAW creation rules the players won't suffer from the extra challenge on the challenge die, so I think it will work out.

Commoner I like your idea about the chaotic chaos star. That the GM can assign it additional effects in some situations. That's a great idea for different situations. I'll use it with my current rule. Chaos star will count as a challenge and a chaos star that can have effects on cards and ano other effect relevant to the scene. Good stuff

Wait, I'm confused. You have problems with NPCs not being able to hitt the PCs, so you make it more difficult for the NPCs by increasing the difficulty of the challenge?

The simple and easy solution, to beef up NPCs, is to give them more A/C/E dice they can use. Those can be used for both offense and defence, so you can adjust how well the NPCs perform on the fly. If they are getting hit too much/hard, use some to throw extra misfortune dice into PC pools. If they are missing too much, throw some in as fortune (or expertise) dice into their attack pool. That's what the A/C/E pool is for, to help the GM adjust/tweak the encounter as it happens so that it is reasonably challenging for the PCs.