Hello fellow Battle-Brothers,

since my gaming group has support from a new gamer playing a Techmarine I have some questions.

My first question belongs to the Talent The Flesh is Weak , which allows the Machine Trait. This Trait makes breathing no longere necessary which brings along a lot of advantages. The most obvious are that he Marine does not suffer from drowning or a lack of air. Furthermore I wonder for which reason a Techmarine should take the Mechanicus Implant Respirator Unit , since he does not breath and can ignore any airborne toxins and gas weapons at all.

Next, our Techmarine chose Mind Impulse Unit (MIU). According to the general rules for Cybernetics I assume this increases here Toughness Bonus (TB) in the head? Because page 176 says:

The robust construction of cybernetics adds 2 to the owner's TB (after Unnatural Toughness) in the relevant location.

Which leads me to the next question: Does the Servo-Arm increase the torso's TB?

But to go back to the MIU it quotes (page 178):

Common models give no modifiers to machine spirit communication and add [..] used in conjucntion with devices capable of MIU link.

First, what is "machine spirit communication"? Which is allowed for exceptional models. I assume we will see more about this in further supplements.

But the more important question is based on the last part of the sentence: "devices capable of MIU link". Does this mean that the GM has to decide whether a simple cogitator has a MIU link or not? So the Techmarine uses a cogitator to get some informations and first he receives a +10 bonus to Tech-Use because of his Electro-Graft but for another +10 it is not sure if he can use his MIU? Because the cogitaor has to be capable of it.

Cheers,

TechVoid.

I personally don't feel that 'the flesh is weak' should give all the 'machine' traits. It's simply an extra point of armour, due to replacing organs with hardware versions, and a covering of armour plate. Thus: All it does is give +1 armour. That makes sense, isn't unbalanced, and means that the bionic lung things aren't useless.

The MIU shouldn't increase TB. Only cyberlimbs do that, not any other systems unless specifically stated. It's essentially just a few more interface plugs and a firmware upgrade, as all Marines have -I believe- a limited use MIU unit specifically for interfacing with their power armour already installed. Also: It's good enough as it is.

Servo-arms again shouldn't increase TB. The way to use cyberwear to increase TB is by buying cyberlimbs and a heart. It's clear that even the designers thought that +2 TB on the torso was a bit too good, as can be seen by the heart's stipulations and +1 bonus. So why -from a rules point of view- give a player all the advantages of a servo arm AND +2TB?

Machine Spirit Communication is plugging your brain straight into a machine via the MIU and controlling the machine via thought. You could possibly argue that the PC might need to buy Binary Chatter if you were feeling mean.

The GM does indeed need to decide what has MIU link capability and what doesn't. The default answer should probably be 'no', unless we're talking about important stuff that would be typically be used by people with MIUs [ie Tech-priests]. Tractors, congitor units designed for use by normal people, all civilian vehicles and suchlike most certainly won't have the capability. As an example and on the subject of vehicles, Land Raiders are controlled by MIU interface. Predators, Rhinos, Leman Rus tanks, Land speeders and pretty much anything else isn't.... unless it's specifically built for the Skiriarti [or however you spell it], in which case it's possibly been upgraded.

Read carefully. The Servo-Arm is not built into the marine, it is installed on their Power Armor. The Bionic Heart increases the TB of the torso by +1.

Siranui said:

I agree with you but the description of the Talent is quite clear by stating: This Talent grants the character the Machine Trait [..]

Thanks for the rest, now it is more clear to me!

Cheers,

TechVoid.

TechVoid said:

Unless I'm misreading something (which is totally possible) you would take the Respirator Unit if you chose not to take The Flesh Is Weak. You would also choose to take the Respirator Unit if you were a non techmarine and got your lungs blown out by something (GM improvised critical damage, effects from poisionous or corrosive gasses, etc.). And FWIW, I can't actually find the description of Mechanicus Implant, aside from the fact it is called out as a pre-req for a ton of sutff

TechVoid said:

I would not give the head a +2 TB, maybe a +2 to his spinal column if someone was targeting the implant itself. I would be more apt to give the head a +2 bonus if the marine had something more akin to the bionic eye and skull depicted on the back of the book. The idea behind the TB increase is that you're hitting the cybernetic, not the person, and if the cybernetic is so small you'll likely hit the body part and not the implant...

TechVoid said:

Machine Spirit communication is a fancy, religious way of saying "diagnostics." Essentially the TM knows how to diagnose, relate to, and understands the inner workings of the machine more than others do. The TMs, along with the mechanicus, believe this understnading is based around religious ceremony, etc. Annointing your boltgun with sacred oils may be nothing more than ensuring the weapon is cleaned and well oiled, there is not (neccesarily, depending on how you view it) anything magical about it- it's just good maintenance. Same with machines or computers. Warhammer 40k wikia does a better job describing it than the lexicanum: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Machine_Spirit

To get the +10, the device has to have an MIU capable interface, and not everything would. Weapons, for example, unless noted in their description (see arm mounted) don't have an MIU interface. Cogitators may or may not- given the vast lack of firm description of some of these devices, I'd say it's in the GM's pervue to decide if it does or not, and it could depend on the model and/or age of the cogitator.

Charmander said:

Well hidden in plain sight on page 133. Took me a while to find it too.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Sidebars will be the death of me...Why would you put it there????

Thanks for the pointer.

Charmander said:

Really? I thought the more likely culprit might by chance be failing eyesight. In which case, I can relate.

Charmander said:

Because they had to put it somewhere, and that just seemed the best place to have where people would miss it. At least, that's my story, and I am sticking to it.

-=Brother Praetus=-

TechVoid said:

I've learned to completely ignore rules written by Fantasy flight on occasion.

As someone stated: You could let it slide on the basis that only Tech Marines can get the talent, or you can be mean like me and hit it with a nerf stick on the basis that it's a bit too good, as written.

No need to hit Machine Trait with a nerf stick, there are ALOT of drawbacks that come from extensive cybernetics & the Flesh is Weak (like being able tos uffocate a tech-marine to death with a things like some of the crazy haywire guns and such from Rogue Trader & DH Sourcebooks).

Why take bionic lungs when you have the flesh is weak? to get the +2 TB to torso, or perhaps you see yourself as more of a magos biologis (and don't want to be more machine than flesh... obviously you're not an Iron Hands techpriest heh). On a similar note, it's been said why take hardy when you can take auto-sanguine which is better. If you upgrade auto to pro-sanguine, you can blow the system out trying to self-repair, hardy keeps you lightly wounded ven when you've blown out your own little nano-bots from overuse heh.

The TB is for having a cybernetic implant in that area, not just a cybernetic limb. Yes, Techmarines are very, very, incredibly sturdy.

That being said, you don't have to nerf these things, you can be creative with ways to deal with it. Surely that Techpriest with the Flesh is Weak (3), 2 cybernetic arms, cybernetic legs, bionic respiration, MIU, cybernetic senses, bionic heart, servo arm, & a host of mechendrites must put off a large detectable signature to something like a rhino (or at the very least, a sentinel lol). Easy auspex pickup right there. Previously mentioned, haywire weaponry and odd xenos weapons, etc, etc.

BrotherHostower said:

That is exactly why I took Hardy on my Space Wolf Iron-Priest in preference to Auto-Sanguine at Character gen. Losing access to Auto- and Pro-Sanguine for a week whilst the system recovers can be a very bad thing to have happen if you've not taken your Hardy back-up. Also, Hardy is unaffected by Haywire effects, whereas Auto- and Pro-Sanguine are theoretically susceptible.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Lungs don't give +2TB on the torso without a VERY generous interpretation of the rules. Otherwise that's a pifflingly small cost for a massive game bonus. After all: Every character could then just put some points into cybernetics for a ridiculously cheap TB upgrade to every part of their body.

The TB should only be applied to limbs, IMHO. anything else is poorly balanced.

Haywire grenades and auspex readings are entirely moot, given the players are in power armour. Either the power armour is intended to work in hostile environments which included those with massive EM issues and the haywire does nothing to the armour and will shield whatever is inside, or power armour doesn't actually allow SMs to fight anywhere or shield in any way, in which case the SM is already boned because their armour just stopped working. And as regards the auspex; either the suits have a massive signature themselves, or they are designed not to be, in which case they'll be shielded, which will shield whatever is inside them, too.

Siranui said:

Ahem, re-read the Req cost of the EMP Grenade. If this Grenade isn't specifically designed to let PA's malfunction, I don't know what is. You can rule things of course any way you like but in my game it's going to mean a lot of twitching and break-dancing Space marines.

Alex

Those grenade costs are insane for single items. If you're charging that Req cost for one, then yeah: Make them fry PA.

That aside, the point stands: If they're powerful enough to fry PA, then they pretty much take any PC out of the fight regardless of cyberwear. Haywire grenades are not a magic wand to make life hard for cybernetic PCs when they make life hard fro ALL PCs.

Haywire were always rather a problem when you could pretty much instakill any vehicle or power armour with them for the low low price of 4 points.

Siranui said:

Ah, that reminds me of the good old Jinx Psy Power... what was it... level 2 or level 3? Fun but totally imba.

Alex

Hello folks,

here the answer about The Flesh is Weak Talent from Ross Watson :

The Flesh is Weak grants all the advantages of the Machine Trait (including being immune to vacuum).

The Techmarine already has penalties for interaction skills, in that Fellowship upgrades are very expensive and there is a lack of Interaction Skills in his advance scheme.

Cheers,

TechVoid.

ak-73 said:

IIRC it's a minor power obtainable at the very start of the Psyker's career.

Extremely useful tool to tell power hungry and over-'borged players that they're not invincible.

Overpowered? No not really. But the really fun thing is that a frightened nascent psycher child could potentially hold an entire kill-team frozen in their malfunctioning power armour while they slowly suffocate (their helmets wont open to let in air since they're... malfunctioning) unless someone make that "impossible" strength test to move and remove his helmet and show the poor kid that they ARE human underneath their frightening visage.

I've also used it to teach a psychopathic techpriest (one of my players who always, always , start down that path no matter what) a harsh lesson in humility.

Blatifagus said:

Ahem in old Rogue Trader 40K it was a Level 2 Psy Power with which you could make one enemy piece of gear go malfunctioning. It could be anything from a gun to an entire vehicle . And all that just for a few Psy Points. At a very good range (20 inches or so?). Yeah RT 40K was quite unbalanced.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Ah! I stand corrected. The old table top Rogue Trader. I'm not geared towards multi-processing game terms today it seems.

You are ofcourse correct.

Part of the reason we ignored psykers.

And banned Haywire. And indeed Rad grendes after the first few times the tabletop was saturated in such munitions...