...or the topic about "I'm firing with my heavy bolter. Oh, you charged me! I use my chainsword inmediately"

In the Deathwatch Rule Book, it's not said how much time did you spent on changing the weapon that you are using for another one. In other RPG like Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader, it says that you spent Half Action.

But, and here comes the problem, can you do this in Close Combat?

It's not strange that a Tactical Marine could drop his Bolter (Free Action) and then he pick up his knife, or even, his chainsword. But can also do this a Devastator? Could he drop his Heavy Bolter and pick up the knife in the same time? Or would he use the heavy bolter as a hammer?

I ask this because, if it's posible, a Devastator or a Marine with a Heavy weapon, whose weakness should be Close Combat while he has the heavy weapon, would disappear. They'd be able to use the weapon more useful in each situation. And even a Devastator Marine it's dangerous in close combat with a chainsword.

And imagine what would happen with an energy sword.

P.D: I hope you understood my English

Well,

With basic weapons I don't see that much of a problem, remember, all Marines are Ambidextrous and can wield Basic Weapons one handed while in Power Armour and there is always the option of Bayonet options.

The Devastator wielding the heavy weapon could something simular, he could hold his heavy bolter by the top grip (usually left hand) and use for example Quick Draw to reach for his Combat Blade/Bolt Pistol or whatever CQ weapon he has.

Santiago said:

But a backpack beltfeed would get in the way. I'd rule he could only fight with his off-hand.

Alex

Space Marines are ambidextrous though, so there is no off hand.

Delahunt said:

Good point.

Alex

If a character has quick draw (or dipole mag locks) I'd let them their weapon and fight with a close combat weapon as a free action. I'd also however remember that they dropped their main gun meaning that it's on the ground. If it's not on the ground, and on a sling or otherwise attached to them, I'd impose a penalty to Combat actions...my gut says -10. I'd require a half action to holster, store or otherwise secure a basic or pistol weapon.

If they maintain a grip on their primary weapon (as they can do with their anbidexterous recoil gloves and uber strength) I'd still let them quick draw a combat weapon, and no real penalty seems to make sense to me (provided the close combat weapon isn't two handed)

For a heavy weapon, I'd let them it an suffer no penalty, or they could hold it one handed and take a -10 due to it being unwieldy (they can hold it based on strength, sure, but the fluid motion of close combat means it's probably getting in the way at some point). For weapons that use the backpack ammo supply I'd be tempted to add an addtional penalty just because I'm a jerk, but doesn't seems to me it would not be more difficult to fight with a sword while holding the top handle of a heavy MG than it would to be swinging around a missle launcher one handed. Though maybe if they DID a weapon with an attachment to a backpack ammo supply, I'd keep the -10 penalty around as they dance over and crush the heavy weapon that's trying in vain to anchor them to the spot.

Ambidextrous or not, having to lug an HB around with the ammo belts and everything while in a melee fight is not good. Unless, of course, there's a Talent for that. I'd give a -20 penalty for the Devastator, unless he spends a Full Action to get rid of his weapon.

Sandepande said:

And with suspensors?

Alex

ak-73 said:

In that case, it would probably be like wielding two weapons. Handling something that big, even with little weight, is going to interfere in one way or another. However, Devastator tripping over his belt feed would possibly cause his opponent to become amused and open to counterattack...

This is covered in the book.

Quickdraw allows switching of weapons, or preperation of a handheld item, as a Free action not a Half-action. if you have a di-pole maglock on your weapon it has the same effect. If you have BOTH Quickdraw and a di-pole on a melee weapon, then you can swap to a Melee weapon as a Reaction. If you have neither, then it would be a Half-action to stow/one weapon and another Half-action to draw another, using all your actions for the turn.

Marines can wield Basic weapons in one hand without penalty, but the rules still state only Pistol weapons can be use in melee. This means that whilst you can wield a sword and bolter, you can't use the bolter once you get into melee combat due to it's bulk.

Marines get Ambidextrous, allowing them to use either hand without penalty, so nothing to stop them holding their Basic in one hand and Melee in the other, they just can't fire said Basic weapon in melee. As for Heavy weapons, it's a little more vague but the implication is that you' d have to the Heavy weapon to draw something else. If you had the Power Armour history that allows you to brace Heavy weapons and move and fire with them as you can with Pistols and Basics, then i'd say you could effectively make use of your suits extra bracing capability to hold the Heavy weapon in one hand while using a Melee in the other.

I think anyone who worries about being caught off-guard in melee should just get a di-pole maglock on their combat blade or a chainsword in order to just their current weapon and draw a Melee weapon in preperation.

Kasatka said:

Specifically, if you have both Quick Draw (which all DW characters start with) and a melee weapon equipped with DI-pole magocks then you may draw your melee weapon as part of your Parry reaction. Otherwise, everything else is correct and presented well.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Or your devastator could just have a combat shield on his left arm and bypass the defensive failing altogether while he draws his bolt pistol.

Santiago said:

Page 140 Basic weapons: normally require two hands but can be used one handed with a -20 penalty to hit, while wearing Astartes power armour this penalty is negated

Page 156 Melee Attachment: allow a basic ranged weapon to count either as a combat knife or chainsword in close combat

Page 161 Recoil Suppression: Provides the ability to fire Basic weapons one handed. Ranged weapons classed as Pistols still may not be used in close combat.

My take on the issue is: you can use a ranged weapon with the melee attachment one handed with the -20 penalty to parry and attack, the -20 penalty is negated for ranged attacks only. The logic behind it is: such a weapon would be unbelievably unwieldy and hard to hit and parry with, because of the awkward grip if you hold it in just one hand.

@Tkis

That is an excellent reading of the rules, thanks for finding that, now I don't have to house rule why melee attachments on bolters used one handed is a bad idea.

As to the OP discussion here. Personally, I think its entirely fair to allow a devastator to "drop" or "holster" his heavy weapon and quick draw some other weapon. Yes, melee is their "weakness," but not so much in the manner that they die if engaged. Rather, their overall effectiveness decreases exponentially. They no longer can break hordes in a single turn, and instead, are forced to either run off, or ineffectively swing with a knife or chainsword. In melee, the real strength comes from either multiple attacks, or the use of particularly powerful melee weapons and talents. Devastators have neither, and will probably not dump requisition into anything fancier than a chainsword (maybe a powersowrd if you throw req at them).

Remember, the goal of the GM isn't necessarily to kill the party. This isn't TT where its my team vs. their team. Putting a player out of the fight for an encounter is entirely reasonable.

KommissarK said:

A Tyrannid warrior tears a Devastator to shreds because of the number of attacks. Thought I might throw that in. Anyone who doesn't have two or three melee attacks will have trouble against real melee opponents. Holstering weapons or no.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I would be inclined to phrase it " anyone without two or three reactions..." After all, Step Aside and Wall of Steel provide for an extra dodge and parry respectively, with your normal reaction being able to be used as either defensive response. The inclusion of Di-pole maglocks on a melee weapon makes for the chances of survival when one finds themselves suddenly in the dervish dance of melee a much likelier thing.

Multiple attacks are still a good thing to have though.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Higher ranking DW characters can probably out-damage a Nid Warrior, that's when multiple attacks will do. Apart from that you are right. A combination of both works best though.

Alex