What is the highest damage rolled at once in the game? Is it the mighty lascannon? how does an orbital Bombardment work? I am looking at the Dark Angel's Psychic Powers and I see their Force Shield. If that is manifested as a Push, at PR 10 (can it go above that to 13?) that's 30 AP(39?) combine that with MC Terminator Armor (15) MC Storm Shield (5) and Immovable Defense (4) all adds up to a ridiculous 54(63) AP that, at rank 5, ignores penetration.

Does stacking like that work? What can get through that, (Without RF madness) I mean, that sounds like it'd be easier to cut through the bulkhead NEXT to him, than go through him if he's blocking the door.

Time to pull out the anti-psyker weapons.

From Inquisitors Handbook we have Psycannon Bolts, which "ignores any psychically or warp-generated armour or protective field". Though you may need a heavy bolter or the angelus boltgun to get through the rest of his armour.

Ascension gives us:

- The Vindicare rifle with Shield Breaker rounds. Not only is it hard to dodge and will pack a punch, it disables Force Shield for a round so that other stuff can get through.

- Hellax Infernus. A melta that ignores psychic defences and may permanently reduce the psykers willpower.

- Malleus Psycannon. Human-sized heavy bolter that ignores psychic defences and can have its damage boosted by its wielders psy rating.

Does it negate armour ignoring weapons ? (such as things with warp weapon)

my bad, it reads "If manifested at PR 5 or higher it counts all ranged attacks as as having a Penetration of 0"

I'm still getting the image of him stopping a Battle Cannon shell a la Neo. Would even Titan weapons RELIABLY wound him? especially in he also stacked TB and cybernetics?

Fenrisnorth said:

Use Titans as the good ole Warbot Model 425 Mark IV: can't be harmed by anything (except a piece falling off on its own), one-shots everything.

Alex

As above, there are plenty of examples in system of weapons that can outright ignore psychic effects like that, and at ranks like that, its entirely possible to be fighting things that well equipped.

As far as rules legitimacy, I'd say sure. As long as they're not wearing multiple suits of armour, it should all stack. Yes, this is fairly scary for the enemy. Don't have my book with me, can a character doing this make any meaningful attacks, or are they stuck there?

Also, on massive damage, remember, the area around them can still be destroyed, so fall damage would still suck.

GM: "Alright, so 15 tau railgun submunitions, and 8 seeker missiles all hit you general area. None of them get past your ap, screw you"

Player: sigh of relief

GM: "But they did cause a 30m crater below your feet" rolls falling damage

(and I'm fairly sure falling damage ignores AP, right? otherwise thats a crappy example)

KommissarK said:

It does and it would cause 30D10+30 damage iirc.

Another idea: EMP Grenades, lots of them. Good luck in your Terminator Armour when it goes dead. And your Storm Shield goes out.

Alex

ak-73 said:

At least from DH it was 1D10+20 max at 25/30m, though DW may have updated it. You're still in trouble taking 20-30 points of damage only using your toughness, even as a marine.

Of course, with the Titan, I am reminded of the story in the 2nd Ed SW codex about the Titan stepping on a wolf guard in terminator armor. His squadmate was pissed, and emptied the clip at the Titan for killing such a hero without even realising it. He was mourning when the Wolf Guard stood up out of the wreckage, the ground had given way before the terminator armor did.

I took a look at the how the DA is making this strong tank. Both Force Barrier and Immovable Defence require the DA to remain stationary. So counter it by making the enemies want to move:

- Have enemies move behind something. Either some very strong cover (32 AP cover will be a problem), or something that means the Space Marines don't know where the enemy is.

- Have the cult they are sent to purge run away. If they stay still, the cult gets away. Move and they lose the defence bonuses.

- Some terrain effect that means that if the Space Marines stay put, they will die. Such as a Vortex of Doom that isn't moving as randomly as it should (due to heresy).

Also note that sustaining a psychic power requires the Librarian to take a half action. That means he only has a half action to spend on attacking the foe.

I also looked at the Warp Weapon trait. It would ignore all the armour on your DA tank, except the Force Barrier and warded armour (note that only the Black Templar relic armour is warded in the core rulebook*). Make the attack a melee attack (as most warp weapons seem to be) and it gets through Force Barrier.

*DH Inquisitors Handbook does offer Hexagramatic wards, which work on human Power Armour, so they should work on Astartes Power Armour.

This character makes a great target, but remember the wording on Force Barrier is the Librarian can NOT MOVE (at all) in order to gain the Force Barrier benefits. That means the only thing this character can do, is crank out half action psy powers (as you don't technically need to move in order to activate Hellfire or Telepathy, etc). This pretty much means, as long as that character isn't standing taking up a doorway that the enemy can't go around, while he's practically invulnerable to damage, his own options are very, very limited (to the point where he can't even speak) and the enemy can just, y'know, ignore him until he drops his barrier.

I'm pretty sure they mean the Move action when they say cannot move. I was thinking of this as a readied action or something, or, yes, to cover a doorway to allow your team to accomplish an objective.

It blatantly says can not move, not may not take a move action, not must remain stationary (like immovable defense).

Emperor! You are like a guy I went to school with who claimed that in D&D he could cast a spell without speaking because the book said "In order to cast a spell the character must be able to speak in a strong clear voice." And he wasn't gagged or in a zone of silence. That kind of rules lawyery jack***ery is sheer forum trolling. By your interpretation his heart beating would disrupt the power and bring down the field, as that is a part of him moving. To combat your epic tomfoolery let me trump your naysaying: DA upkeeps power, continues fighting, when he is about to be smoten, he freezes, he is no longer moving so the Emperor Protects, the Lascannon tickles a bit, he giggles, shield drops as he moves, and he continues fighting.

I'm sorry my reading the rules offends your delicate sensibilities so. My interpretation of it is, you form a static psychic shell (the ludicriously high armor value of the force barrier) around yourself, as it reads "The librarian forms a potent and static psychic shell over himself." The barrier is tight around you, turning you, essentially, into a statue that is near impregnable. Your heartbeat would not break this, but you suddenly swinging your around around, taking aim with your bolter, yes, it would ruin the integrity of the field. This power is utterly broken (and most of the nay-sayers for the game would say, yeah, what else is new) otherwise. And, for a dose of cold water, I PLAY a dark angels librarian, with this power, if I were a rules lawyer just up for jack***ery, would I really screw myself on this?

Fenrisnorth said:

It means he can do no action with the Move subtype. Aiming, etc is okay. Moving, standing up, falling down is not. Turning would actually be considered a move, I believe, although that is a matter of interpretation.

Alex

Hey, I like cold water! If it was meant that restrictive they would have said "As long as the Librarian takes no other action" and you are backpedaling Brother, in your first post, you disallowed speaking, SPEAKING! a heart pumping is as much movement as lips moving. I don't think it's that broken, It's basically a piece of cover, It's weakness is that it doesn't apply to melee. It will protect against a railgun, but that angry hive tyrant is still gonna eat you.

And my sensibilities are about as delicate as a Plague Marine's backside, thankyewverymuch, that's just a surprisingly slavish devotion to applying flavor text to rules. My true intentions were to see this power used as a means to escape total destruction from hardcore ordinance, not to become a nigh invulnerable killing machine on the battlefield, wait, Marines already are.....

And good choice on chapter might I add.

ak-73 said:

The thing is, turning isn't really an action, as the system has no hard coded notion of "facing".

I do think the argument that is "tight" shell around the body is absurd, I would rule they can act (as long as they sustain), but just cannot make actions with the move subtype, unless the want to lose the effect of the power.

Overall, I see the usefulness of the ability, but I think trying to argue that a DA librarian is a better tank than say, a DA techmarine (with good toughness advances, early artificer armour, same solo mode ability, flesh is weak) specifically because they have this power, is silly. As any smart enemy would just move away, react accordingly, or attack a different target.

KommissarK said:

DA Librarians - Force Dome and Force Barrier don't stack? Anyway, I can see, given the fluff text, why a Librarian moving could break the spell in some GM's interpretation. Ask FFG someone?

Alex

The only reason Force Barrier & Force Dome don't stack is because you can't use both at the same time (both are full round actions, takes 1/2 round to maintain). No where under Force Barrier does it say it doesn't work against melee, by the by, so that Hive Tyrant isn't going to hurt you anymore than that railgun. Deffinately think it's an ask FFG time, because other powers/abilities that state you have to remain stationary are worded differently.

BrotherHostower said:

I have a Rune Priest and a DA Librarian in my group. You can begin to see my GM woes?

(And you might find it hard to cast in the presence of a HT though.)

Alex

true it works, but they get penetration, unlike ranged. If I ever used it, it would be in a situation when I wasn't planning on coming back, i.e. to cover my kill-team's retreat.

Fenrisnorth said:

I just looked at the Turbo-Laser of the Thunderhawk in Shadow of Madness:

Dam 4D10+30. And FWIW Pen 20.

Alex

So, 4d10+30 Pen 0 (assume psy 5 or higher, let's say rank 3, so psy 5, push is 8 x 3 is 24) vs armor (artificer) 12 + 4 (stormshield) +4 (immobile defense) + 24 (force barrier) = 48 + 8 TB. Doable? yes, reliable? no. 4d10 - 26 for damage is... not great odds, without stacked TB & Cybernetics or warp conduit.

BrotherHostower said:

For a Reaver Titan a Multi-Laser is secondary armament though to destroy super-heavy vehicles. Against other Titans he uses the Volcano Cannon, if Lexicanum is to be believed. Not to mention the damage it would do to the ground. It would be impossible to remain stationary.

So there you go. For simplicity's sake I rule that every creature it shoots at is dead and every creature shooting at him does no harm. Unless...

Alex

PS Another thought: Blood Boil. High level chaos sorcerors might be able to do a lot harm.

ak-73 said:

Really? GM's hold all the cards. That means Librarian = Dead.

That 4d10+30 is one shot from a turbo-laser to boot, Reaver's is double barrelled (not twin linked). If you look at the 40k rules for titans, they can also carry things like the mega-bolter which would have something like a ROF of 50 in DW (or probably more accurate storm or 'super storm' or something equivalent as no one get's 50 DoS to hit), or 10" melta blasts (which would equate to what, 20m?). If, for some reason, I put my characters against a titan, they'd best be running away from it lest I just decide to inflict enough damage to kill them. "Oh, you can absorb 50 damage and have 20 wounds? You take 80."

Or as Alex suggests, 'you fall 30m' in the crater made by the shot and take the d10+25 to your skull (or as I see DW damage for falling is listed as "1d10+1 per m fallen" does that mean 30d10+30 or 1d10+30? Either way you subtract 8 from that and you're still pretty much effed).